DaveR

Was it just the saddle or the seatpost as well?

What factory farming has done is to feed a very large number of people more cheaply than was ever thought possible. Most people buy cheap food because that's what they can afford. That doesn't mean that everything is OK, or that practices do not need to be properly regulated both from the perspective of public health and good practice regarding the care and slaughter of animals, but it's nonsense to think you can just turn the clock back to some golden agricultural age.

"Brandishing the imaginary card is just a reminder to the referee to make sure he/she follows the rules of the game. No different to a victim reporting an alleged criminal matter to a Police Officer" "Please Mr Policeman, that man hit me, honest he did, quick, put the cuffs on him and if he struggles make sure to thump him, go on....."

"To be honest I have much more respect for people who say "Yeah the meat industry does make me feel a bit uncomfortable but I just really like the taste of it." How about I'm not that fussed about the meat industry and I like the taste of it? What bit of your post was ironic? It just seemed fatuous to me. Also, you misunderstand me. I'm not accusing anybody of being a hypocrite - you were, but seemed to have got the wrong target. And I didn't really understand your use of sanctimonious about vegetarians who eat dairy, as opposed to vegetarians generally. And I don't have any pets, so that bit is kind of lost on me, although as I said, your accusation of hypocrisy seemed pretty lame. Any dog owners who also like sausages feel free to chip in. And finally, I really don't have to justify what I eat to anybody - that was my point. The fact that you like to make rules about what you are willing to eat makes bugger all difference to me.

"Also I do hope nobody in favour of this thread owns any pets as that would be quite hypocritical. A bit like those sanctimonious vegetarians who eat dairy products" Why would this be hypocritical? There's no rule that says if you eat cows you also have to eat dogs. In fact there's no rule that says what you're allowed to eat/have to eat at all*. Unless you choose to be a vegetarian/vegan/whatever. The hypocritical ones (possibly) are the vegetarians who eat dairy products, tho' they may also be sanctimonious (but it seems unlikely). I'm certainly not going to criticise anyone who, having denied themselves bacon, seeks comfort in cheese. *Obviously there are some rules about eating people, and endangered species and stuff, but you get the idea.

"Only half the people in this country have pensions. The number one reason given for not having one is affordability. Full rate pension contribution tax relief is enough of a subsidy from the poor to the rich. Does the government have better things to do with the money? Yes, of course it does." I agree - see my conclusion above.

H, you think it doesn't support my argument because you (still) don't understand my argument. I'll try again. I'm not talking about misbehaviour, I'm talking about economics. Every business is in the business of creating value* i.e. making products or supplying services that are worth more than the cost of the labour and capital required to produce them. If they didn't there would be no such thing as economic growth and no nice things in the shops. Tax avoidance in itself is inherently incapable of creating value - it just moves a fixed sum of money around between the business, the government and some lawyers and accountants - and is thus an inherently inefficient use of labour and capital. It may well be the case that businesses will make better use of the money than governments, but that is an argument for lower corporate tax rates, not avoiding taxes. *This is not a technical term but is my approximation of a whole load of economic theory

H, I'll ignore the (by now somewhat tiring) patronising tone and the nonsense about my 'anti-business' platform and try and engage on the issues. Forget about what happens to the money you get back/don't pay out. There is a significant cost involved (in cash and human terms) in setting up these schemes, but the accounting cost to the firm does not represent the true opportunity cost for the activity, because it does not include the loss to the public purse. Alternatively, to put it in terms that even you can understand, I know a guy who is a tax partner with E&Y. He is a very smart guy who spends all his time dreaming up and implementing avoidance schemes. His clients are big businesses who operate factories, shops, banks etc, but when they come to see him they're not thinking about that, they're thinking about avoiding tax. The UK economy would be more productive overall, I suspect, if both he and his clients applied themselves to thinking about how to manufacture or supply products or services more efficiently instead.

"Yes it is. I have a psychology degree which included clinical psychology, and have done postgraduate research in psychology." Well done you. Have you read the research you posted a link to? Not just the abstract, but the methodology and findings? In your expert opinion does it support your assertion that bright blue bins are capable of impacting negatively on the mental health of ED residents to the same extent as constant loud music? Do you want to talk me through how you came to that conclusion? While you're at it, can you explain why, as has already been pointed out, you came out with this nonsense: "There are statistics indicating the relationship between the visual environment and crime, for example the New York zero tolerance of graffiti and litter." If you're going to make this kind of statement: "you'd be better advised not to make statements about things you clearly know nothing about" you'd better be on very firm ground. And it also puts you in a very poor position to complain about unpleasantness. If you don't like the look of the blue bins, just say so. Trying to invest your opinion with quasi-scientific authority plus showing us your certificates just ain't very persuasive. ETA - I have a whole load of experience of crime and disorder, much of it involving people with mental health problems, but it has zero relevance to my opinion on blue bins.

Sorry KK, we may be talking at cross purposes here, but what I am saying is that charging the market rent for a flat cannot, in and of itself, be regarded as taking the piss/taking advantage/being a 'bad guy'. Charging the market price for something is what most businesses do, all the time, and there's no reason for residential landlords to be treated any differently.

"Unless you're a psychologist yourself, perhaps you'd be better advised not to make statements about things you clearly know nothing about" And I would suggest that a bit of mid-afternoon googling is no substitute for having genuine knowledge or expertise But that's just me being rude again

"If this was constant loud music noise, would you still feel the same? It's visual noise. And I would suggest equally harmful to people's mental wellbeing." And I would suggest that you are off your chump. But lets just agree to disagree.

"I'm glad you're entertained ClaireC but I standby what I say. Mortgages are quite often lower than rental amount. KK, I know this because I have first hand experience of it. If you ask for the tenant just to cover the mortgage you're one of the good guys and believe me, there aren't many of you around. Maybe you just aren't aware of that. Maybe you think most people in your position are like you. A guy I used to know paid less than ?500 a month mortgage on his one bed property in Brixton Hill. He rented it out for ?1000 and got it because that's the amount he can command for rent in that area. I guy I used to date paid less for his mortgage on a one bed property in Balham/ Clapham South than I pay rent for a studio flat in ED. My friends landlord was commanding a ridiculous amount of money from her and the other tenants in her house- squashed in as many as she could so must have been getting about ?1600-2000 a month and it was ex council so she sure as hell was making some serious bucks from that one. I'm not saying ALL landlords are rolling in it. Those that have just one property and aren't really in it for the moeny, more to cover themselves until they sell and make their money that way, but most will take advantage if they can. " This is the full original post from which the 'good guys' quote is lifted. I think the implication that commercial landlords are 'the bad guys' is pretty clear. Maybe where it says 'most will take advantage if they can'. I'm just pointing out that a landlord not charging roughly the market rent is great if they can afford to be charitable but can't be the default expectation. It's like saying if your salary is more than you need you should give the rest of it away if you want to be considered a 'good guy'.

SJ and KK - by definition you didn't 'need' to make money on your rentals, because you chose not to. Altruism is admirable, but it doesn't follow that people who are commercially motivated are (by implication) the 'bad guys'. BTW, I could have added a third category - where the circumstances don't allow you to either make a return or get your capital out, but 'asking a tenant just to cover the mortgage' implies that this is by choice rather than force of circumstance.

"No-one has is taking seriously how these huge blue, green brown bins have ruined the landscape of ED" Not quite true. Some people are taking it very seriously indeed. I, on the other hand, am taking the piss, and freely admit it. Landscape? Don't make me laugh. It's a Victorian railway suburb, not an unspoilt wilderness.

"Has anybody noticed how arrogant and self-important people seem to be in East Dulwich, especially on Saturdays? You would've thought they were living in a Royal Borough, or the like." Has anybody noticed how many people come on here to complain about other people in the most generalised and sweeping terms, especially 'middle class' people and parents? You would've thought they'd have something better to do.

It's like a new game. Just complete the sentence according to your own enviro-aesthetic tendencies: Everyone complaining about the colour of bins or how frequently they're collected or the size of the bin needs to go....out for a few drinks and relax or Everyone complaining about the colour of bins or how frequently they're collected or the size of the bin needs to go......count the number of pebble-dashed houses around and re-think their priorities

The Action Aid report is interesting, although not that surprising. It doesn't take account of the fact that HMRC is both a lot better informed than they are, and has pretty draconian powers, so there is a much greater level of scrutiny than they may think, as evidenced by the slew of litigation that Mick refers to. What it shows is a massive transfer of value from UK taxpayers to shareholders in big UK plcs, but then there is a very significant overlap between the two (most of the shareholders are pension funds etc.). So the real question is do you want your pension to be a bit smaller in order that more tax is paid, whether to the UK government or elsewhere? Slightly surprisingly, I'm inclined to answer 'yes', for two reasons. Firstly, I think 'pure' tax avoidance, lawful or not, is pretty anti-social and ill becomes big companies (more ruthlessly, they may benefit from marketing themselves as 'tax ethical'). Secondly, time and money spent on tax avoidance is essentially non-productive, and the profits are false profits. I'd rather see that effort directed to activities that genuinely create value through better products, more efficient processes etc.

"If you ask for the tenant just to cover the mortgage you're one of the good guys" No - you're either an idiot or someone with enough money not to need to make a return on your capital

19. But a few of those were lucky guesses.

The use of tax havens (at least by big companies) is not primarily about 'hiding' anything, but organising your business, particularly where you own assets and where you carry out transactions, to take advantage of generous tax provisions in some overseas jurisdictions. Tax havens market themselves to multinationals for precisely this purpose. Tax authorities in countries like the UK try to close loopholes so that UK tax law catches activities that ought to be taxable here, but there are lots of smart tax lawyers looking for new loopholes. Easy to say "something must be done", but not so simple in practice.

"wanting to drink wine out of a wine glass does not make someone a 'pretentious, silly snob FFS'" - agree "That's how I drink it in my home and that's how I expect to drink it in a pub." - disagree (in the sense that if the pub fails to meet your expectation it is deficient) If you want to drink your wine (a) in a pub and (b) out of a wine glass, then that pub will not be the Actress. Simple. No value judgments necessary.

The reason everybody should report every proper crime (theft, burglary, robbery etc.) to the police is that it enables them to prioritise and target their actions based on reliable intelligence. The police monitor crime patterns in their local areas quite carefully because (believe it or not) they do want to get out there and catch crooks. Reporting thefts, with proper descriptions of the stolen goods, also enables the detection of crimes long after the event. So, rather than complaining, you should report crime to the police. You may not see the immediate benefit in terms of 'your' crime being solved, but we are all better off in the long run.

H, I'm getting a bit concerned about the sheer number of rape-based metaphors in your posts. If there wasn't enough evidence already that you could do with a lie down and a cold compress, that should tip the balance.

We need a new version of Godwin's Law about the inevitability in almost any thread of some cretin equating bankers with criminals H, I'm not going to descend to your level and call you a 'liar', I'm going to remain pedantically analytical and say that you are simply wrong. The markets are currently pricing Euro zone sovereign debt realistically because the truth is out, the inherent risks in the euro project are now being realised, and governments are dithering.