Rockets

And your point is what exactly? The comments were recorded? The council hasn't acted on any of them have they? Honestly this narrative of "you should have clicked the something else option" is so tiresome and non-sensical. If everyone had done that I guarantee the council would now be saying....we listened and now we are doing something else (despite that something else being exactly that the council had been planning for!)

Jenijenjen Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > legalalien Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > The thing is Jen, that the permanent closure of > > the junction and Dulwich Square thing is what > many > > of the opponents of the scheme are against. > Turn > > that into a timed closure based on new timings, > > have a discussion about school holidays, some > > progress would likely be made pretty quickly. I > > think, anyway. > > So this is how people should have responded to the > consultation instead of the blanket ?remove > everything? as advised by One Dulwich, who as I > said earlier shot themselves in the foot by not > treating the exercise as a consultation where > different solutions could be explored. But there was no option to do so......

Jenijenjen Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ?given that definition and given 68% of people > responded saying remove the measures can you tell > us how the council arrives at the conclusions they > have? To me it looks clears the council has given > a small minority of the community the opportunity > to influence the decision......which is not what > consultations are supposed to act upon.? > > I am unable to find the official figures but from > memory just under 30,000 people were invited to > participate in the consultation of which 7,000 > responded I.e. just over 25%. Of this 25% it?s > been said that two thirds were against the LTNs > which brings the percentage down to 17%. Can the > opinions of this small minority be allowed to > influence the decision? The council has listened > and made sensible tweaks with the exception of the > DV junction which they wish to remain closed which > in my opinion is a mistake - the concept and > execution of Dulwich Square is just tacky in so > many ways. Now had this been a referendum, what > this 17% wanted would have carried more weight. > But it wasn?t a referendum, it was a consultation, > they work differently. > > And to the person who accused me of being a troll, > this is a very good example of the belligerence I > was talking about. It might be a good idea for you > to check the meaning of the word troll as well. Then what's the point of consultations? And I remind you that the council used feedback from the OHS consultations (to which about 100 people responded) as justification for the closures in the first place. They can't have it both ways! To Legal's point the issue now is that party politics weighs heavy on local politics so our councillors are far more happy keeping their paymasters happy than the electorate....

Jenijenjen Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > This is the definition of a referendum: > > ?a general vote by the electorate on a single > political question which has been referred to them > for a direct decision.? > > This is not what the LTN consultation was about. But it was a consultation, which, by definition is: What is consultation? Consultation is technically any activity that gives local people a voice and an opportunity to influence important decisions. It involves listening to and learning from local people before decisions are made or priorities are set. jenijenjen - given that definition and given 68% of people responded saying remove the measures can you tell us how the council arrives at the conclusions they have? To me it looks clears the council has given a small minority of the community the opportunity to influence the decision......which is not what consultations are supposed to act upon.

Dulwich Street Space Review update dropped through our door today. It should probably be re-titled the Reasons We Aren't Listening to you document. Well worth a read - it's very entertaining reading how they justify their position on the Dulwich LTNs. Interesting to read that no-one can object to the Melbourne Grove north moving of the closure.

Interesting walking around Soho last night to see all of the road closures had been taken out there (which I don't thinks makes any sense as it was much better with them) but I read the council has taken them out pending the result of consultations. It seems they are taking a very different approach to Southwark as the expectation is locals will support the measures and they will return as a permanent fixture.

That's a great article, not least because I am sure many of the usual suspects will be bombarding Southwark News with....it wasn't 1,000 people messages....;-) All we need now is for some media to challenge Cllr Rose on demonstrating her claims of "extraordinary impact in increasing active travel and reducing car use" to take this story to another level. Unfortunately for all the bluster the council's claims don't stand up well under scrutiny. I did think it was interesting that in the BBC Radio London interview Cllr Williams kept trying to talk about Southwark wide and the interviewer kept trying to get him to focus just on Dulwich. I suspect the council knows the Dulwich numbers don't add up.

There is a concerted effort to try and shame anyone who dares challenge the pro-LTN narrative at the moment and it has gone into overdrive following the protest. It seems attack is the only form of defensive some people have to counter rational and pragmatic analysis of the true reality of LTNs.

I think what matters right now is that there is a concerted effort by the pro-LTN supporters to try to discredit everything One Dulwich does - all of the usual suspects are posting to Twitter saying how awful the demonstration was, how it blocked the road (when it didn't), how there was graffiti (when many think that graffiti has been there for some time - certainly I had seen that daubed on one of the signs prior to Saturday), how there wasn't 1,000 people etc etc. It really goes to show just how effective One Dulwich and the other groups are - they have galvanised support against the LTNs and the pro-LTN lobby is trying to attack them at every opportunity (seemingly going out of their way to create falsehoods to enable them to attack those people protesting at the Junction). All that shows is that the anti-LTN lobby groups are being much more effective than the council, and its supporters, thought they would ever be. Power to the People and all that!!!! P.S. For my two-penneth worth I reckon there were 500+ people there on Saturday.

I heard that the 1,000 figure was determined after someone from One Dulwich found the secret formula the council uses to determine modal shift figures for their reviews!!!! ;-)

Latest OneDuwlich update....we made the BBC News.....! ;&) Our protest against the Dulwich road measures An estimated 1,000 people living in and around Dulwich ? young families, cyclists, older people and those with disabilities ? took part in our peaceful protest on Saturday 16 October. Thank you to everyone who came. You can see coverage on this BBC local news item here, and we will be putting up clips on social media and on our website shortly. Speakers included clean air campaigner David Smith (also known as @LittleNinjaUK on Twitter) and representatives from One Dulwich and the Dulwich Alliance. Cllr Rose?s decision Just before our protest, we discovered that the call-in by Lib Dem councillors on Southwark?s Overview and Scrutiny Committee ? that is, their request for Cllr Rose?s decision to be reviewed ? had been turned down (see this report in the South London Press). We have asked the Council to explain why, and are waiting for their response. As far as we know, this means that there will now be a 21-day statutory consultation period before the traffic orders can be made permanent. We have written to Southwark asking them for information about this ? so far, we can find nothing on their website. What next? 1. We will be holding further protests in other parts of Dulwich over the next few weeks, which we hope will be good news for those of you who weren?t able to come on Saturday because of half term. Details to follow. Let?s double the size of Saturday?s protest and get even more media coverage. 2. We will also be asking you to respond to Southwark?s 21-day statutory consultation with very specific objections to all the measures over the whole Dulwich area. Again, more to follow once Southwark have provided details of the timeline. 3. Please keep emailing your local councillors, decision-maker [email protected] and your local MP, reminding them (i) that two-thirds of those living and working in all three Dulwich LTNs who responded to Southwark?s consultation opted for all the measures to be removed, and (ii) that the council?s current refusal to listen may be reflected in the results of the local elections in May 2022. 4. If, at the end of the 21-day consultation period, Southwark continues to ignore local demands for a fair scheme that fulfils all its obligations as a local authority, we will ask our legal team to advise on the best course of action. Thanks to your generous donations to our fighting fund, our legal team is reviewing all the paperwork and stands ready to move quickly. Best wishes, The One Dulwich

I think LAS and the other emergency services have been telling Southwark the DV measures need to be made permeable since they went in. Who knows how long it will be before they finally concede. On that note why was Cllr Williams saying they are consulting with residents on the proposed changes on his interview on the BBC - can we expect another consultation?

What's funny is that yesterday there was a taped off, marshalled lane in front of Au Ciel as the police told the organisers that that's where they needed to keep the road clear. The previous week a full music ensemble set-up blocking the same area for the Music in the Square event and not a single person tried to cycle through and take issue with it. Funny that.....

Lots of bah humbug on display today. What they fail to realize is there was a dedicated, marshalled lane to the left of the junction through the crowd. But hey, never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

I see Clean Air Dulwich are claiming it was dangerous for cyclists as it was all blocked. Well it wasn't as there was a dedicated cycle route through the crowd which was taped off and being marshalled as directed by the police. They just chose not to use it. You have to wonder why some are so hell-bent on de-0ositioning a group protesting. Maybe the issue was there were so many people protesting that groups like Clean Air Dulwich take offence to.

Spartacus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I'm curious > > Were any councillors or council officers there to > see the level of protest going on ? I very much doubt it. Someone did shout out where is Helen Hayes and someone close to me suggested she disappeared at the same time the ATM did that Margy claimed to have saved and whether that was a coincidence! ;-)

march46 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Not sure where you are getting your facts from > Metallic. If you look at the council?s > consultation report it shows 67% of Calton Ave > respondents and 53% of Court Lane respondents wish > to RETAIN it as it is / RETAIN the measure but > modify/enhance with other features. > > > Metallic Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Except it seems very few people in Calton Ave > and > > Court Lane, in the bigger number of them, > wanted > > this closed off area. I know I didn't, and > people > > in Woodwarde, Court Lane, the Village certainly > > didn't. Your comment fans the division. You > > don't know who and how many you are actually > > slagging off. March - the council are desperately hanging on to these measures on the basis of the results from Calton and Court Lane as they are the only streets that have not resoundingly voted against any measures. But this isn't just about Calton or Court Lane it is about the impact on the whole area (but saying that the fact there is so much opposition on Calton and Court Lane is a strong sign that these measures are not as popular as you, or the council would like). You are amalgamating three categories to get your percentage (do you perhaps work for the council?). Bottom line is today hundreds of Dulwich residents gathered to protest against unjust measures that the majority of Dulwich residents have told the council they do not want. You can pontificate all you like but I was so heartened to see a community uniting against a council that continues to treat the views of constituents with utter contempt. The small vocal minority is anything but and the tide is finally beginning to turn.

Well done Dulwich - a superb turnout and well done to all the excellent speakers who attended.

Good news! Glad you found it!

Metallic Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I am writing about the LTN row so this is the > right page. > > Isn't it horrid for the viewpoints to be so split? > And here we are listening to news of another MP > murdered. Passion runs so high, and some of the > nastier comments I have read on here about the > different angles of this very local row, seem to > show a bit of simmering hatred for people who > don't agree with you and who you think you can > badmouth as you are anonymous. > > So let's all be more respectful to each other, > please. And that includes the Councillors who pay > no heed to what their constituents say to them, or > listen to that other viewpoint. It's probably the only thing all the contributors on here will agree with: it's divided a community.

This is fascinating: Kieron Williams talking on BBC Radio London - he gets asked about LTNs at 6.31.... So he admits there is increased congestion on some roads. A lot of bluster and puff though..... He says they are consulting on the proposed changes and residents will be responding over the next few weeks - does anyone know what that is - he is implying there is a consultation of the suggested changes from the consultation? https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09ynqjt

It's funny isn't it - how many sensible ideas that have been put forward by residents since the LTNs went in? Makes you wonder why the council/TFL didn't think of some of them instead of putting all their time, money and energy into a policy so fundamentally flawed as the LTNs. What I find incredible is that since the LTNs have gone in the council has done nothing to initiate any programmes to further facilitate active travel - the roll-out of cycle hangars has been shameful and other boroughs have created segregated cycle lanes. Southwark seems to have been a bit of a one-trick pony; it's LTNs or nothing. They have wasted 18 months on a glorified vanity project.

march46 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > One Dulwich clearly were involved in putting the > signs up. Their email account facilitated it. > > https://i.imgur.com/K1mWt6D.jpg > > > Rockets Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > March - let us be clear One Dulwich have not > put > > any signs up. People who believe the council > needs > > to "Stop the Road Closures" put the signs up. I really don't know what point you are trying to make - you seem to be just trying to portray One Dulwich in a negative light. One Dulwich didn't go around putting the signs up randomly in people's gardens - people requested them - and a lot of people requested them. And you say people have been banned from the forum you have no proof that the person who set-up the onedulwich account on the forum had anything to do with the onedulwich organisation - LTNBooHoo, Manatee etc were also banned around the same time - so again, what point are you trying to make exactly? If truth be told I think what you're really angry about is the fact that OneDulwich has been doing a great job educating the majority of Dulwich residents as to what has been happening and how poorly the council has been treating residents who live here.

March - let us be clear One Dulwich have not put any signs up. People who believe the council needs to "Stop the Road Closures" put the signs up. The position of One Dulwich and, seemingly, the majority of people in Dulwich is that the road closures are a "solution" that is making the problem worse and benefitting a few but negatively impacting the majority. Let me ask you a question: do you think the road closures in DV are a fair and equitable solution to the problem? Are you happy that they have totally failed to deliver on the stated aims the council sold you on?

Errr March - Stop the Road Closures has applied since day one. One Dulwich, and the emergency services for that matter, have, since day 1 been saying that closing roads is not the solution and create more problems than they alleviate. Timed closures are not closed roads - there is a big difference. Closed roads are roads where no traffic can pass through at any time. I am afraid you keep labouring a point where none exists as nowhere on the council's review documentation could you select "timed closures" as an option.