Rockets

Yes this is how I remember it - a circular car park rather than through traffic. Seems to be born out by the council document too: These carriageways constitute a circular route and provide access to all areas of the park. These roads have also provided a considerable amount of parking for users of the park.

Someone should get that kid to the velodrome then.....! But they said that they want to reduce car use by 50% - which is easy to say, far harder to do (especially if there is no investment in public transport infrastructure to support it). If you only pour money into one form of transport the others will not work effectively. Which is a great picture but only in it's most simplistic visual form. It can only work in practice if everyone is doing the same thing, going in the same direction at the same time, transporting the same things - it's a wonderful ideological visual statement but one that doesn't actually exist - it's logical but utterly flawed when applied in the real world.

In the last 5 years the vast majority of engineering to our roads has been designed to "nudge" (isn't that the word TFL and councils use") drivers to switch to bikes. If I can't mentioned my observation about Lime bikes travelling at 20mph on a thread about Lime bikes where can I - do you suggest I start another thread......? Is it 14mph under battery power - if you pedal as well does that increase the speed? He was cracking along at 20mph - the Uber driver showed me and it was a bog standard Lime bike.

I think the definition of a through-route and rat-run was very different in 1963 so your comparison and use of this to illustrate your point is misleading....and the Dulwich Society says one of the issues was Dulwich was being used as a rat-run and cite the park access as an example but not the only example. In 1963 there was a boom in car traffic everywhere but it in no way compares to the definition of a rat-run now. I am glad you acknowledge that but why do you not challenge the council on this - after all they have been telling everyone they do not have any money? I think what you are describing there is what is known as a dictatorship...you're basically saying they should have ignored the views of the majority of residents.....Your obsessive minority mantra is really getting a bit tired now - time and time again it has been shown to be anything but and the obsessive minority are the ones on the other side of the argument. You are spot on - there is no more socialising there than there was before (despite the varied attempts by the friends of Dulwich Square to muster community activities). In fact, the biggest congregation of people there over the last 5 years has been the anti-LTN protest. Do kids hang around there after school on summer's days - yes they do, but they used to before the closure too? I did laugh that when a couple of kids started using the first design for skateboarding during lockdown some of those behind the square complained to the council and got measures added to stop them from doing so.....bah humbug.....

Yup, it's 15 year project (I think some elements of it started a year or so ago). Imagine how annoyed Earl will be when they find out that the new Teaco superstore planned has underground parking for 530 cars....

Come on Earl, you've got to admit First Mate does have a point...it's a bit odd that active travel is so important to the council that they repeatedly spend millions on that junction yet they increase the potential for car ownership by 20 by allowing a developer to add parking places. It's a bit....confused. BTW I still don't think we have established that parking around Dulwich Park was a "cut through'. Does anyone actually remember Dulwich Park being a through route...or just having cars able to drive and park around the perimeter?

Yup let's revive this thread in 2040 when it's all due to be finished and I will crow about how there's no cinema, no bowling alley and only a fraction of the affordable housing that was promised! 😉

How did the provision for affordable housing miraculously disappear then.....and if they did get a cash payment from the developers for removing it one wonders what the council then spent that money on....surely not.....? I haven't mentioned anything about parking spaces...I think you're confusing me with someone else you were arguing with! ;-0

Nope, this is not America - the picture you posted is and their use of cars, and retail space as a result, is massively different. But your fixation on car park space, whilst ignoring the fact that the cinema and bowling alley were entertainment hubs for many, really shows how utterly blinkered you have become (but this is not at all surprising and was to be expected and I love how I mentioned the closure of the cinema and bowling alley and you went straight to "good, there's a car park"). Only time will tell if the developers hit the 35% of affordable homes - I think there is more than enough historical evidence to suggest that being seduced by claims made by developers is a fool's game and that the actual number may be far fewer. And when the developers start saying "could" in their documentation you can probably bet that "things change" may be trotted out as development work starts - especially given the involvement of some of the companies that were involved in Elephant and Castle Masterplan where "a lot changed" between plans and completion. The Illustrative Masterplan could deliver around 3,000 new homes, helping to meet Southwark’s housing needs.

Yes in the sense that it's an over-priced house rammed into a tiny space with no garden. I don't have anywhere near that type of money but if I did - I wouldn't be looking at one of those. And the fact a few of them are still on sale suggests those with that type of money might think the same. I knew there had been an affordable housing element in the initial plans - so DKHB the council can change planning. According to the Dulwich Society Aquinna officered to pay a cash payment in lieu of building the affordable housing. This is how this type of thing happens all the time.

Well the aforementioned demolition of the Audi garage knocked down d#gs#it failing retail units (your words not mine) and replaced them with really expensive rabbit hutches - a number of which are still, not unsurprisingly, unsold. Weren't some of them supposed to be affordable homes in the original plans approved by Southwark?

I am shocked sometimes at how fast I see Lime bikes going - I was following one recently and he was doing 20mph down Lordship Lane and cycling up the inside of buses, squeezing between the parked cars and the buses - creating self-induced close passes - the Uber driver suggesting he was going to get himself killed. Aren't Lime bikes supposed to be topped at 14 mph?

Exactly....perhaps some of those commenting on here never went to either the cinema or the bowling alley but they were always very busy whenever I went - so they were both very well used resources. I am sorry to see them go but you know, good that they have been shut down because it gets rid of the car park.....#rollseyes No it's not but do we take it then that your vision of London then is huge swathes of over-priced loft-style apartments or luxury apartment blocks sold to the most wealthy, that come with a coffee shop, a 24-hour over-priced supermarket, an expensive gym and pool and a separate (discreet) entrance for those living in the (few) affordable houses that were built (for sale or often rent) to satiate planning requirements (that often start with a bold commitment but then gets significantly diluted throughout the process)? I refer you to the Elephant and Castle Masterplan.......funny how the architects seemingly always refer to them as masterplans.... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/24/developers-ruining-cities-elephant-and-castle-london

Does London need more high-end, high-cost, high-margin housing - is that where the need really is - especially as more working families are being forced out of the capital because of the cost? Do the people who currently live in Surrey Quays need more high-end, high-cost housing at the cost of their leisure facilities? You're trying to distract about the Pizza Hut - I am looking at the big picture and this is a gentrification trend which ultimately harms London and the people who live in it. Perhaps you quite like the idea of a £1.9m 3 bed loft style apartment - unfortunately for most that's not a realistic target. The upsides tend to be reserved only for those who can afford to live there and, for most, those aren't the people who may have called it home for the whole of their lives.

How many local people currently use said pizza chain, cinema and bowling alley? How many local people will move into one of the new homes built over it? If you welcome over-priced houses, are a fan of gentrification and a bit of social cleansing to boot good for you! I am not. Go ask the people who use to live in Elephant and Castle about the impact this type of development has on a local community - developers don't build anything now for the incumbents. I am still chuckling to myself that people actually thought this was a good thing on the basis that it removed car parking space - it just shows how blinkered people can be - it's a very special branch of champagne socialist that has those thoughts!!!! 😉

Removing a high-usage cinema and bowling alley to replace it with a supermarket and expensive homes (at a cost well out of reach for the vast majority of local residents) should not be something that is championed just because it is removing parking spaces. At those sort of prices the developers are catering to the Canary Wharf and City banking types who want a short commute to the office - not the existing local community. This is why there is an constant flow of people out of London and why primary schools are closing left, right and centre - because developers behind things like the Canada Water Masterplan (not sure masterplan was the best name to give it as it suggests some sort of social cleansing) like this are only interested in catering to the high-margin, high earner market: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwyjwy5951lo#:~:text=People are leaving inner London,space in the outer suburbs Dumping supply is not good if the supply is only at the high-end, high-margin end of the market. Southwark News asked if there were plans for a cinema and bowling alley to replace the ones closed. Their response suggests that there will actually probably be an over-priced "artisan" coffee shop selling the finest Yak-dung coffee, a sandwich shop called Kumquat, a hot yoga studio and a We Work!!! 😉 We asked them if there was due to be a bowling alley, cinema and facilities similar to the ones due to close. Whilst British Land said they were ‘committed’ to delivering a variety of leisure and entertainment options, they were unable to confirm whether these facilities in particular would return.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpw5d50xwwpo

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c04plzgyvg4o

definitely something going around - a lot of people seem to have it - our family had it over the last week and a bit.

Earl, I think you're being blinkered by the car park - it is the loss of the cinema, bowling alley and Pizza Hut that have been such a focal point for many Surrey Quays residents (and those, like us, who travelled to them to use them) that is the issue. I bet those who used the facilities (and they were always really busy whenever we visited them) are overjoyed that they are being replaced by a bigger supermarket and a load of new (what look like really expensive) homes.....The first development in the area is a loft-style living space called The Founding and prices start from £700,000 for a one-bed up to £1.9m for a 3-bed. I now realise this is why PrintWorks shut down too. The Canada Water Masterplan (as the developers refer to it) should probably be renamed the Canada Water Gentrification Plan. https://southwarknews.co.uk/area/rotherhithe/im-there-every-other-day-locals-heartbroken-over-surrey-quays-leisure-park-closure/

Went to book a film to find Surrey Quays Odeon is no more. Such a shame, I didn't realise everything was being shut there. Used to love a bit of bowling at the Hollywood Bowl too. https://southwarknews.co.uk/area/rotherhithe/surrey-quays-odeon-cinema-confirms-august-closure-date/

I doubt it but looking at how narrow the cycle track currently is they might have to as that chicane will become problematic with the speed some cyclists hurtle down Calton.

That's how I remember it - people used to park in the park (but it was a long time ago!).

Was it a through route - I remember people parking around it?

Earl, congrats - that's by far the most well-thought and rational post you have made yet!!! I am glad you are finally seeing sense - it's taken you a while but glad you have finally joined us! 😉