westof

zeban Wrote:

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> Westof do you not realise that the distance

> criteria has been abused/monopolised by those that

> can afford to move near a good school? Don't you

> think that's not right? and can you not see why

> that's a very good reason to change the criteria

> for allocations?

I'm not in favour of distance criteria! As I said, it fails those who happen to live between schools but not close enough to either to be sure of a place. And as you say, it favours those who can afford to buy a house close to a good school...

I just agreed with Fuschia that it was a simple system - that doesn't make it the fairest one.

It's also probably the policy that offers people the least choice in any real sense - you get the 'choice' of your nearest school, but the better the school is, the less likely you are to get that choice, unless you live on the doorstep. If the next nearest school is half-decent you probably don't have a chance of getting in there either since you live too far away. But it's OK, you have the 'choice' of a school that's miles away because the parents on the doorstep of that one don't want to go there...

Fuschia Wrote:

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> Westof I think the situation would be simpler if

> places were allocated on distance .., Harris

> kingsdale etc do not do that hence taking pupils

> from far afield

Well, it would be simpler if places were allocated on distance, because it's a very easy system to understand & to administer.

It may not feel very fair though, if you happen to live halfway between 2 schools with no real chance of getting into either since you don't live quite close enough. Then, if you get a place at all, it's likely to be at a school at the other end of the borough which happens to have spaces free because local parents don't want to send their children there.

Like Msgee, I'm bit concerned that James Barber keeps saying that the lack of school places is mainly down to Southwark places going to out of borough children - it's covering up the real problem, which is that there aren't enough school places in schools that parents want to send their children to.

I'm pretty sure children in London have always been able to cross boroughs at secondary school level - it's often the case that your nearest school in the next borough. Plenty of Charter kids come from Lambeth for instance - it's their closest school and only right that they should be able to access it. If some kind of "Southwark Schools for Southwark Children" policy was brought in, they would be stuffed, since they aren't necessarily close enough to a Lambeth school to have a decent shot at getting in.

Likewise, I'm sure there are Southwark children who would rather go to their nearest school, whether it happens to be in Lambeth or Lewisham, than be allocated a school at the opposite end of Southwark with a ridiculously long journey just because it happens to have some spare space.

Worrywart, Kingsdale is holding an info evening about Appeals this Tuesday (5th April) - you may already know since it's on their website, but I thought I'd mention just in case.

James Barber Wrote:

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> Hi skyblue,

> I'm afraid I don't see the need for another

> secondary school in south Southwark. The problems

> we have appear largely due to Southwark secondary

> schools taking so many none Southwark kids.

> I'm not sure where you get 200 parents from?

> The actual number of Southwark kids in SE22 not

> allocated a secondary school in the first round

> was 34 with 44 for the whole of Southwark.

> Do you mean the number who didn't get a 1st, 2nd

> or 3rd choice?

>

> I received a PM asking about the hospital site.

> For a school to be built the land would need to be

> purchased. And then planning permissions etc.

> You'd be talking about ?30M and proving to the

> Department of Education that a need exists. But

> the Labour led Southwark council has wobbled about

> the need for a new secondary school in

> Rotherhither with 10,000+ more homes being built

> so I'd be surprised if they felt a case could be

> made for a new school when no real home building

> is taking place in our area - total sub 100 new

> homes in the next 5 years I'd guess.

Could you prevent or dissuade Southwark schools from admitting non-Southwark kids though? I mean, would that even be legal (?)

It does seem to be a problem that so many schools have distance based admission - that is always going leave children in the lurch if they happen to live in a black hole which is equidistant from a number of schools, but close to none. i.e. they are then likely to be offered a more distant undersubscribed school with spare places.

And as others have said, the main problem is fragmentation, with every school allowed to set it's own admission policy.

Again this could leave you without a place if you aren't eligible for your nearest school (eg on faith grounds) as you then aren't likely to be close enough to another school which may admit on distance?

There are 200 parents who didn't get any of their 6 choices though, so there would probably be well over 40 who signed up for another decent option.

The 40 without any offer at all is just the tip of the iceberg.

And realistically, any school in the Camberwell / Nunhead area of Southwark would be likely to be accessible to Lambeth or Lewisham parents, even with a distance based admission.

I agree the main problem is the fragmentation, but that one isn't going to go away, whether a new school opens or not.

new mother Wrote:

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> Rigorous competition ? all children will know

> where they stand in comparison to their peers and

> how to improve

>

> Otta, why does this worry you?

The above could mean anything from intensive tracking to make sure children are on target & don't slip behind what they are capable of (which would be excellent practice), to a giant list published weekly with the entire year group ranked in order of achievement.

It really does depend what that statement turns out to mean, and from the wording, it's hard to know what they are aiming for.

Mark Dodds Wrote:

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> > PART of the three hour discussion on Monday night

> was about languages. Mandarin was being pushed

> along with Arabic. Latin was not part of the mix

> really, other than Toby Young's obsession with

> it.

Mandarin, Arabic & Latin would ALL be progressive languages to offer in an inner-city comprehensive IMO. (as well as European languages).

If you go on to study law, medicine, sciences etc surely having done even a bit of Latin at school would stand you in good stead. (I say this having not studied Latin, or law, medicine or science so feel free to put me right).

And (cynically) if you really want to attract enough middle class kids (to get a balance NOT to swamp the school) then "we offer Latin" is handy shorthand for "we can be the right school for your child".

Sorry Mark Dodds, I feel I've been pulled into a derail of your thread!

God knows there's enough other threads on the EDF with people debating the pros & cons of Kingsdale, maybe we should butt out of this one a bit?

Yes, the 70% statistic is "70% of all English, Mathematics and Science entries reached Grade A* to C" which as far as I can see, is a measure only used by Kingsdale.

The 59% is for the percentage of pupils getting 5 A-C grades including Maths & English - this is the standard one to compare with other schools. 59% is still good, though, and the general movement seems to be upwards.

A lot of other very good schools with a broad intake scored low on the EBacc though. The state schools with very high scores tended to be grammars or other selectives, not community schools.

Yes, it might indicate that some of Kingsdale's A-C results were gained though BTEC courses - but that in itself isn't neccessarily a bad thing.

If nothing else, it shows that they are still catering to a broad ability intake, and hopefully fitting children to the right courses for the individual.

On a purely selfish note, I hope the EBacc scoring means that schools in general aren't tempted to push middle-range students onto 'safe' BTEC courses - but it was still pretty sneaky to score schools on it, out of the blue.

Do either Harris Girls or Harris Boys have a problem filling their schools though? If not, I can't see why they would change.

I don't know the history behind either school though - are they single-sex because they were replacing existing single-sex schools? Or just because Harris wanted to try out single-sex schooling?

It might also be worth getting in touch with the people who got Elmgreen School in Tulse Hill up & running, AFAIK that was completely parent-led, with no involvement from sponsors of the ARK & Harris kind.

SSCIL (Secondary School Campaign in Lambeth) is long gone I think, but I think it was their campaign which eventually led to Lambeth Academy & Evelyn Grace Academy opening - both of those are sponsored Academies (United Learning Trust & Ark).

Lukedaisy Wrote:

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> Harris Boys temporary site was in Langbourne

> Primary School before they moved to the new

> building. My aunt lives next to Langbourne and she

> said the Harris boys seemed like a well behaved,

> nice lot, compared to the riff raff of Kingsdale

> (her words, she lives there), so it does sound

> like they may well have been picked on .

I've a friend in Herne Hill who made similar comments negatively comparing the smart well-behaved Evelyn Grace children and Kingsdale children. I did have to remind her she was comparing Year 7s (as Evelyn Grace had opened that year) with older teenagers so they were bound to be more subdued in comparison.

BB100 Wrote:

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> Dunamis2011 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Was just reading some posts re Harris boys

> school.

> > What is this about older Kingsdale boys mugging

> > them?

>

>

> You have to remember that the older boys at

> Kingsdale are the old cohort, the last of the

> problem kids the school was at one time heavily

> populated with.

Also, wasn't Harris Boys temporary site in an old primary school near Kingsdale before they moved to the new building by Peckham Rye? - any incidents I'd guess might relate back to that time period i.e. not necessarily current.

South London Dance Studios (in the old Herne Hill Post Office) is what used to be Grafton Dance Academy in Village Way.

I only know it from when it was in Village Way, but it seemed fine. I'd guess the facilities (lack of waiting room / limited changing room etc) will have improved with the new building, although it won't have that sweet little garden which was nice in summer!

The teachers were lovely with the little ones, and there were some older students doing really well.

Thanks for the explanation Dunamis2011.

I still think of the CAF as a Pan-London application - and it probably doesn't help that I think of Kent as the bit with Margate & Dover in it & forget that it nudges right up to London.

It's hard to imagine at this stage - I certainly couldn't last year - but there really is movement between schools up to the start of Y7 & during the year, even between popular / oversubscribed schools, as children find the best fit for them.

It is a stressful time - we were originally offered our 2nd choice last year and between October & March I'd changed my mind about the school & wished I'd put it further down the list. It's an awful feeling.

This is the first year of Kingsdale's 6th Form, so I don't know how you have seen any published A'Level results, since they wouldn't exist.

How did you manage to apply to schools in Kent as well as in London? - genuine question as I didn't know that was possible.

If you are really concerned, I think it would be possible to go on the waiting lists for the other schools - especially as they are in a different borough.

I do really doubt your daughter would be disadvantaged by attending Kingsdale though! The current Year 7 has a full share of high ability children, as I suspect next years will & I would think that by the time the current cohort takes its GCSEs both the GCSE score & the EBacc (if this is what is worrying you) would be quite high.

prickle Wrote:

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> That takes me back! Kingsdale's rebuild was in the

> halcyon days of New Labour. My brother was in the

> team that worked on the rebuild of the school and

> the project was based on the premise that

> architecture could change the failing school ? a

> sort of experiment, clearly one that has worked.

>

> It's the Coalition's shame that even with the

> evidence from the success of schools like

> Kingsdale where improvement in the built

> environment has had such a positive impact, the

> BSF has been canned. Shame on Mr Gove.

Well, the difference between in Kingsdale in 1998 after 19 years of Tory government and in 2010 after 13 years of Labour is pretty shocking... probably too simplistic a comparison though?

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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> I can only assume that the allocation of

> scholarship places from the waiting list must be

> according to some score ,the person with the

> highest aptitude ( though how one measures

> aptitude as opposed to attainment I don't know ..

> ) must get the next place .

>

> But ( I'm sure to most people's relief ) I'm

> giving up the struggle to understand it now .

I had the impression from last year that the scholarship places - like the general admission - were randomly allocated.

They did have a scholarship waiting list and a general waiting list - if you had a scholarship you were on both lists.

Though perhaps they allocate the full scholarships before the half-scholarships - that would be logical enough.

If anyone is going to the admissions information evening for prospective parents on 5th April, it would be a simple question to ask.

I think they would only gain from having the process as transparent as possible.

It is a bit concerning that the quote in the SLP has Kingsdale's oversubscription criteria as in care, siblings and ability in music, maths or sport - with no mention at all of banding or random allocation.

Was that just shoddy reporting? Or a hint that they are moving to more selection next year? Mind you, I don't think I could sum up the admissions policy in one sentence.

sillywoman Wrote:

> Except with The Charter whose academic results are

> still way above Kingsdale and manages to achieve

> this on a purely community catchment criteria - no

> jiggery-pokery needed. Just flying the flag - I

> know we're not the 'buzz' school this year.

If we're comparing, it's interesting that Kingsdale improved without changing it's name, like most of the schools in Southwark which became academies or rebuilt...

I think Charter is excellent btw, and it does have a genuinely mixed intake.

If you don't want to go down the make-up / perfume / pampering route, how about a lava lamp / plasma ball or something similar which is funky & teenager-ish.

Daughter in Year 7, again nothing but good stuff to report. Perhaps too early for our experience to have much weight, but the settling in is well-handled, teachers by all accounts seem strict but good-natured, older pupils are friendly.

EDmummy (and loulou99) I wouldn't worry about the rumours - they do have basis in fact BUT they relate to a period some years ago when the school was really struggling. From all I can gather, it hasn't been like that for a good few years now.

To reassure you even more, I do have some experience of my daughter attending a failing primary school (happily this school is now also very much improved, but there were a dodgy couple of years) and given the effect on her during those years, there is absolutely no way I would have sent her to a secondary school where I felt this experience would be repeated.

Do you mean the feedback form? (which seems only applicable if you used the Real Nappies scheme) or is there another questionaire to fill in?

The page you linked to seems to just be an info page?

.