Earl Aelfheah

Have you still not read the regulations around how this income is spent? It's not secret. You haven't 'uncovered' anything. Yes, any surplus generated can be used for public realm improvements, road safety measures and other things - just read the links if you're actually interested. But this is all irrelevant. There is a far simpler question one can ask to determine whether the bus lane is part of a huge conspiracy or not - is it impossible, or even difficult to turn from Lordship Lane into Overhill Road (a one-way street) without driving in the bus lane? It clearly is not. The reason people enter the bus lane is to undertake queuing traffic. If you decided to use the bus lane to do that, then you deserve to be fined. The rest is noise. Overhill is a one way street, so you can turn right into the middle of it. I defy anyone to look at the picture above and claim that this is a difficult turn to make, or that there is any reason to drive in the bus lane.

You could just read what I've said. Southwark can't implement a CPZ for the purpose of generating income - only for managing traffic (there are specific conditions, I've linked you to the regulations, which describe these in detail if you're interested). If after covering the cost of implementing and administering the scheme there is a surplus, then there are also strict rules about how that might be used. This does include road safety and public realm improvements would include things like filtered streets, bike lanes, expanded pedestrian spaces etc. (as I've stated). exdulwicher is right about the introduction of the Dulwich LTN being funded by the UK government's Emergency Active Travel Fund initially. I think your real issue may be your opposition to the types of investments being made in the public realm, road safety and the environment, rather than the principle itself. That's fine, but maybe say that. Again, this isn't a thread about some changes to road layout introduced 4 years ago.

I'm not part of an LTN lobby and this thread is about bus lanes. If you want to follow Rockets advice and drive in bus lanes, then be my guest. I would advise avoiding it though, which really isn't difficult to do.

It's spent on: Road Safety including School Crossing Patrols Contribution to fund Highway maintenance/improvement works Projects in Parks LTN Costs Environment reserve As you have already established

You've asked what Southwark spend money on and then posted a table that accounts for it very well. What exactly are you objecting to? Re. the revenues, comparing the years 2019/20 and 2020/21 (which include lockdowns) with subsequent years isn't really very instructive.

That is not: Your method of ‘research’ as you call it, is actually just classic cherry picking and confirmation bias. Telling people that they can enter a bus lane if turning left is untrue and irresponsible.

It’s marked ‘in confidence’ and has no doubt been published after an FOI from someone trying to find loop holes for their offending. It absolutely does not suggest that you can use the bus lane if turning left or that you will not get a ticket - rather, that they may not bother pursuing an appeal (although I suspect if you’re doing it regularly that changes). I note that it also states that it must be considered in context of other documents of which this is just an appendix to a schedule). To be clear it is guidance to outsourced enforcement companies processing appeals in bulk. It absolutely does not say you're permitted to drive in the bus lane if you’re turning left. Read TFL guidance to drivers, the signs on the bus lanes themselves, and read the Highway Code. This is another example of your searching for snippets of information that you think confirm what you want to believe, whilst ignoring other more relevant guidance, and context. If you insist on driving in bus lanes you will get fined. Suggesting otherwise is extremely misleading and irresponsible.

I believe you got a fine because you drove in a bus lane. It’s a no more complicated than that. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you were passing a vehicle on the left at the time (as that’s usually how people get fined there, and you’ve dodged the question). Rather than just admit a mistake, you’re deflecting and indulging in conspiracy nonsense (colour me shocked).

Your ‘research’ technique really does just involve searching for information you want to believe doesn’t it. If you truly think that you can drive in a bus lane when turning left, keep doing it Rocks. But you will get more tickets.

It’s a confidential document laying out guidance for how a private service provider might batch process outsourced appeal decisions in relation to PCNs. It is an appendix to a specific schedule tagt makes up the whole agreement. It is clear that it must be read in context of several other documents. It does not remotely suggest what you have claimed it does, namely that you can drive in a bus lane if you’re turning left. I am not remotely surprise you’ve been fined if you’ve understood otherwise. You need to read TFls guidance to motorists and the Highway Code rather than Twitter https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-of-red-routes/bus-lanes#:~:text=The times of operation and,indicate if this is permitted.

Do you believe the turn is difficult to make without entering the bus lane? Did you get a fine? Were you passing a vehicle on the left at the time?

It does not state that you can drive in any bus lane when turning left. Your ‘research’ as usual, involves you reading stuff on Twitter and not understanding the context.

Overhill road is one way. Underhill is multidirectional and has buses turning in and out of it. It is also at a 90 degree angle from the main road and on the approach to where Lordship Lane splits (some cars going straight on, others moving over to turn right onto Sydenham Hill). They are entirely different layouts. TfL considers the circumstances of the specific road. Of course it’s irrelevant to what Southwark judge to be appropriate. Do you believe the turn is difficult to make without entering the bus lane?

OK let’s see where TfL says you can drive in any bus lane when turning left. I suspect you’re talking about the specific exception where there is a dotted white line and an arrow (indicating that you can move over to turn left). Where there is not one (as in most cases and this specific case), you absolutely cannot drive in the bus lane. …It does not surprise me that you are getting fines.

No it doesn’t. TfL does not allow drivers in bus lanes. I suspect he got caught in the bus lane

I have. The suggestion that to make that turn requires one has to enter the bus lane is not serious. People get into the bus lane to undercut queuing traffic and save time. Fine, but let’s not pretend it’s unavoidable

Oh, driving across a bus lane does not involving driving in a bus lane?

They’re different roads. One is almost a right angle to the main road the other is not. But it’s really irrelevant. The only question that matters is whether or not the turn is difficult without entering the bus lane. If it is, then you might have a point. If it’s not, then it’s all just noise and deflection and (I suspect), sour grapes at getting caught out, slipping up the inside of another vehicle.

@Rockets Are you really claiming that the intention of that bus lane is to raise money?

So do you not think it is not possible, or that it is even difficult, to make that turn without entering the bus lane?

No I don't. The side road is not at a right angle to the main road. It is very easy to make that turn and there is absolutely zero reason to cross into the bus lane. I haven't done that have I. No one has claimed that Southwark are issuing fines for driving close to a white line, but rather for crossing the white line (another way of saying, driving in in the bus lane). My guess is that people are being fined for moving into the lane before turning. Likely to squeeze pass cars on the left, make the turn sooner and save time.

Always the case that if you enter a bus lane you are liable for a fine. this is not specific to this bus lane. My understanding is that there are no definitive rules for the termination of a bus lane in advance of a left turn into a side street. Each site is considered on an individual basis dependent on the site-specific circumstances. But more importantly, Tfl guidance only applies to tfl managed roads. The relevant question is why you think it is not possible to turn comfortably into the side road without entering the bus lane? You think that TFL don't issue fines for similar 'infractions'? You think people can't see the bus lane? You think this is the key point? Does Tfl ignore people crossing into a bus lane if they only do it a little bit? I think this thread is likely just about Rockets getting a fine entirely avoidably and not taking it on the chin.

How? I have not agreed that at all. It is always that case that if you enter a bus lane you will get fined.

You're quite right! I thought you were talking about a different junction. Looking at the Overhill one, the bus lane does run much closer to the junction, although the turn is also easier / at less of an acute angle Still very difficult to see how one would need to, or could accidentally enter the bus lane when turning left. Not sure the photo above is Again, it sucks to get a fine, but not difficult to avoid.

The rules on bus lanes are very clear. If you don't drive in a bus lane, you won't get a fine. Really? Not what the data shows. If you are concerned with bus speeds on Lordship Lane, then suggest you lobby for extension of the bus lane operating hours. Notable that we currently have Rockets calling for people to drive in bus lanes without getting fined also.