Earl Aelfheah

ab29 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Rahrahrah. > > I did not 'resorted to name calling' - would've > been kicked out or reprimanded (at least) by the > Admin if I did. > > Name calling: "the use of offensive names > especially to win an argument or to induce > rejection or condemnation (as of a person or > project) without objective consideration of the > facts" (Merriam-Webster dictionary). > > I did not use offensive names - if you think I > did, when and what was it?. @ab29 - Just off the bat - you have called me ?arrogant and selfish? a ?know-it-all, arrogant cyclist? suggested that I ?don?t care about anyone else? (using ALL CAPS) and accused me of suffering from a ?complete lack of empathy? (again using ALL CAPS). It?s possible to have different, but still honestly held, views. Most people on this forum express their views passionately, but keep to discussing the substance (e.g. @Rockets and others) rather than resorting to ad hominen attacks. I mean, it's up to you how you express yourself of course - but it's a bit rich to then moan about people not being respectful.

heartblock Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The photographing of people?s homes calling > neighbours hypocrites and worse by CAD followers > was highly unpleasant by the way. I see a CAD > follower then went around Dulwich Village > photographing private family houses and posting it > on Twitter with equally unpleasant text. > Please stop! Yeah, I do agree this isn't on.

ab29 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Patronising tone of many of the pro-LTN > supporters shown on this forum is infuriating and > frankly, disrespectful. Hi Ab29 - I am sorry you feel abandoned. But it's a bit rich to talk about others being disrespectful when you've repeatedly resorted to name calling on this thread.

"We have made numerous proposals to Southwark as to how the individual measures could be adapted and improved, and how the overall scheme could be rethought, so that it can fairly achieve our shared goals of reducing traffic on all our roads, improving air quality and promoting active travel." Can we see the alternative proposal that "reduces traffic, improves air quality and promotes active travel"? Have they* published it? "Would you be happy to back a party that didn't share their manifesto?" - No I wouldn't. This is my problem with One Dulwich. *Who does fund and run the multiple 'One' groups.

One Dulwich are campaigning to have things returned to how they were. This is a fact. @Rockets - do you think One Dulwich are being prevented from articulating an alternative? That they would prefer timed closures, but are being forced, unwillingly, to campaign for a return to the previous state.

Seabag Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > And by Boris? warm words, he?ll be back ?in public > service? soon enough Yep, and he continues to draw his taxpayer funded ?80K a year as an MP in the meantime.

@heartblock - to be clear, I was only referring to ?One Dulwich?. @Rockets - It's notable that the other 'One' groups ('One Ealing', 'One Wandsworth', 'One Oval' etc.) have followed the same pattern - They start out by stating that they're in favour of active travel, of reducing car use, etc. They suggest that they're not against change, but want sensible alterations to current schemes. They grow local support and then campaign for the reversal of all changes and a return to the previous state. It's instructive in my opinion that all of the 'One' organisations end up campaigning for the removal of LTNSs without putting forward an alternative that would actually increase active travel, reduce car use, or meet any of their other stated aims. This is the dissembling I referred to. We don't know how these organisations are funded, who runs them or how they're linked. They claim to be unrelated, grassroots groups and they clearly are successful in building local support. But you can see from their websites, the materials they put out, their campaign tactics and the way many of their supporters encourage people to come out against road changes in different neighbourhoods on social media, that there is co-ordination. I have a lot of time for those wanting to discuss how we might change / improve things, but I'm becoming increasingly cynical about these 'One' groups. They appear to be well funded and co-ordinated and whilst they have encouraged many local people to join up, aspects of their funding and governance remain opaque. I don't think it's unfair to question this. Arguably, they show some of the hallmarks of an 'astroturfing' outfit. But regardless - I simply don't buy the idea that they're being forced, unwillingly, to campaign for a return to the previous state.

They aren?t asking for timed restrictions. They are campaigning to have things returned to how they were. This is a fact. I don?t buy the explanations for how they are being prevented from articulating an alternative, how they have been forced, unwillingly, to campaign for a return to the previous state.

Bic Basher Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The anti LTN group from what I understand is to > have sensible measures put in such as timed > restrictions instead of the permanent closures The anti LTN group are asking for a return to the previous state. In other words, the removal of any restrictions on car use. They also say they want to reduce car use and pollution and encourage active travel. They don?t quite state it such stark terms, as it would seem a bit contradictory, but instead dissemble and obfuscate a fair bit. Perhaps they mean it and do believe that the best way to get people out of cars is to make driving easier and more convenient, who knows? There are others who are supportive of changes, just not these ones and that would seem a reasonable thing to debate, but to be clear, One Dulwich are calling for a return to the previous state. Clean Air Dulwich seem to be implying that this seems a little disingenuous and the owners of big cars who are campaigning for the removal of any restrictions on car use, may not all be interested in reducing car use, as they claim. I don?t necessarily agree with their post, but considering ?anti- LTN? campaigners on Twitter regularly call anyone expressing even qualified support for LTNs racist and accuse them of being complicit in the death of children living on main roads, it seems fairly mild in comparison. Also, I do suspect that at least some of those wanting to remove all road closures might be at least partly concerned about inconvenience. For some reason you never, hear this being given as even part of the reason that people want to remove restrictions.

I love the fact that everyone is calling it a private matter. Even though the video is from his offices at 3 in the afternoon on a Thursday. He also hired his 'long term friend' using taxpayers money. He also broke the social distancing rules that it was his role to create and enforce. How is it not about what he was doing in his job exactly?

Can the council do something about the cars that are overhanging the pavement on Beauval Road? You seem to have approved drop curbs, so that gardens can be paved over for cars that don't actually fit in them.

Turns out he has been lying to his wife too.

Andrew O?Neil has walked away after 2 weeks. So much for the Captain going down with the sinking ship.

Ah, OK.

teddyboy23 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The old library wlll be split the other half will > be callows locksmiths. Do you mean the library up by the Plough, or by the Station?

So half a decade from the referendum result how's it looking?

All this 'voice of the voiceless' stuff from people like Hartley Brewer, Farage, Ferrari etc is so tedious. They seem to be constantly gobbing off about how they're being silenced. Oh if only it were true.

intexasatthe moment Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > dreadful clutter this

An eco chamber for the hard of thinking

@Rockets - agreed.

I think we're a long way from 'complete cycle domination' so I wouldn't worry about that. Motor vehicles on the other hand do dominate the vast majority of public space, so there is quite a bit of scope for some rebalancing.

One thing I think everyone can probably agree on, is that the lack of data / baselining and ongoing monitoring is extremely unhelpful.

heartblock Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Without a doubt people living on EDGrove, LL, > Grove Vale and Croxted are suffering more and > longer periods of idling traffic since the 5 LTNs > went in. The constant denial of our lived > experience is tedious and for vulnerable people > dangerous. I know that Rosamund Kissi Debra is > constantly trolled .... even attempts at no > platforming her due to her lived experience of > LTNs causing even more pollution and traffic on > the roads that contributed to her loss. > > Please stop telling us we are either lying, have > some sort of perception issue or that we are so > dim we can?t recognise an increase in idling > traffic. Even the council in its traffic report > pre-Covid stated that traffic WOULD increase and > congestion WOULD increase on our roads as a result > of other rd closures. > > I would have some passing respect for people if > they were honest and just admitted that they know > that there is an increase in congestion, but they > think the benefits for the LTN residents is worth > our sacrifice. I'm not suggesting anyone is lying. I think that we have been through a long period of lockdown during which traffic was significantly down. It is possible that traffic has increased above pre-COVIOD levels now and that LTNS are responsible. I am not convinced that is the case, although I can't say categorically that it's not. What I do think is that any change is not an indisputable fact / as self evident or undeniable as often suggested. It's a shame we don't have better data as I suspect there is naturally going to be a degree of confirmation bias on both sides of the argument. It's possible for people to have different views / perceptions without anyone being a 'liar'.

Rockets Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The issue is there were always traffic hot spots, > and yes Calton junction with DV was one of them > but that was more due to the meddling the council > did to try and fix the problem and it just made it > worse than it had ever been (and that was > validated by their own monitoring that showed that > after they made changes to the junction it was > more polluted and more congested than it had been > before). > > What I find so disingenuous about those types of > twitter posts is that no-one wants traffic, no-one > actively wants pollution and congestion - we all > want less pollution and less congestion yet what > those posts fail to acknowledge (and actually most > pro-LTN lobby fail to acknowledge) is that > removing traffic from one place and moving it > somewhere else doesn't solve the problem it makes > it worse. > > It's almost as if Clean Air Dulwich wants people > to believe that since the closures went in > EVERYWHERE is a car-free nirvana. It's not. They > know that, we know that but they steadfastly > refuse to acknowledge it. > > For every 2015 - 2019 video they produce someone > on Croxted Road or East Dulwich Grove or Underhill > or Lordship lane could produce one highlighting > how much worse things are there since the arrival > of the LTNs. > > I want less traffic for all - not a small section > of our community and all those videos do is > suggest groups like Clean Air Dulwich are > concerned about is protecting the car-free nirvana > they negotiated with the council at other people's > expense.... This is the fundamental disagreement I think - whether you believe that the number of car journeys are predetermined / immutable. Personally, I think (in fact I know from my own experience) that there is often an element of choice about whether or not to use the car (obviously not always, but for a great number of short journeys, which many car trips in London are). So by making it is more pleasant / safer to walk or cycle and less pleasant / convenient to drive, you can reduce the number of car journeys overall. There is lot's of evidence for this kind of behaviour change being possible (although I accept that doesn't necessarily mean that any particular measure of this type may be effective). I have witnessed the huge increase in the number of people walking and cycling to my kids gym class for example. It used to be absolute chaos previously, with lot's of cars trying to drop off and this has massively changed. It's anecdote I know, but nevertheless It's my experience. I personally haven't seen a huge increase in congestion on main roads, compared to pre-COVID. I remember EDG being carnage in the mornings previously - I used to walk that way in rush hour. I previously travelled to work on the bus from Lordship Lane also and it was always jammed in the mornings - that was a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, Southwark have not gathered any baseline data prior to introducing LTNS, but the London wide data doesn't suggest the massive increase in congestion some claim has been ushered in by car reduction measures such as LTNs. In Wandsworth, where LTNs were taken out because of concerns about displacement onto main roads, it's made no discernible difference to rush our congestion. It's simply encouraged people to drive, and the excess road capacity was filled almost immediately. Again, there is lots of evidence that increasing road capacity increases the number of journeys (with same caveat as above). Tooting just has busy main roads AND people rat running side streets. I do appreciate that there will be a certain degree of confirmation bias on both sides of this debate when it comes to subjective assessments of traffic levels. It's really regrettable that the approach to this hasn't involved better data gathering. But if you look back at videos taken of the main streets pre-LTNs, or look at air quality data (the little that there is admittedly), it certainly doesn't paint a picture of a new problem that's been created by the introduction of LTNs.

I accept that it really comes down to whether or not you believe there is heavy congestion now that didn't' exist pre LTNS. This assessment is not helped by Southwark's failure to actually baseline, and COVID / lockdowns (the latter has made the former more difficult of course). But I don't buy the picture being painted by some of clear streets and clean air on the main roads that apparently existed up until the introduction LTNS. In the areas where councils have bowed to pressure and removed LTNs, it's made no discernible difference to congestion on main roads.