Bobby P

Oh, and still not received the survey here on Melbourne Grove. Perhaps they know I'd vote against!

Karter, as I've said earlier in the thread (and on previous parking threads), I am greatly opposed to any CPZ of any kind. I have one car, live opposite Ashbourne Grove, and never, in four years of living here, have had ANY trouble in parking my car either outside or near to my house. And, even if I did have to park a road or so away, well, big deal - this is London. No one has the right to park directly outside their house always in a large metropolis. Contrast this to the CPZ I had in a similar residential area in N.London (Camden Council). Endless fines, towings and tickets (all wrongly issued, almost all contested with great difficulty but successfully). And all that just for parking my car outside my home - for which I paid ?85 a year back then. And was parking more easy, were there more spaces after the CPZ was introduced there? No, of course not. Less spaces after bays were marked up and just as many cars parked up, so no improvement. But Camden made a nice packet out of all the fees and fines!!

Well I am on Melbourne Grove, Councillor, and can assure you that neither me nor my neighbours received your parking survey. Perhaps you could put it online, which would be cheaper and easier than distributing leaflets that don't get to their targets.

Melbourne Grove (at least south of ED Grove) is absolutely NOT full up all day every day and never has been. I live on this stretch and never have any trouble parking my (one) car at any time of day - even if once in a while it has to be parked a little further down the street or round the corner. That seems perfectly acceptable for urban parking. Anyone who thinks they have some kind of "right" to park directly outside their houses in a built up urban area is barking mad. So, definitely against an unnecessary, inconvenient, expensive CPZ here. Hope they send me their survey!

I really cannot understand the complaints of other Melbourne Grovers. They don't compute. I've seen no problem parking in the four years I've lived on the Grove - just south of ED Grove. In fact, I've never had any problem parking at any time of day or night (and this despite digging up half of Ashbourne Grove). The furthest away I've ever had to park is around the corner. How refreshing, egalitarian and pleasantly unstressful is this grown-up lack of restriction. As I look outside now at 1.30pm, I can see from my window about 5 spaces within 50 yards of the house. This is normal. And even if you occasionally have to park on a neighbouring road on occasion, well... get over it! This is London, not some rural utopia: anyone who expects to always have a space always right outside your door is not living in the real world - moreover, a CPZ will not help you get one, as I well know having lived under one in my previous address, a similar area where its introduction made no difference at all to the parking restrictions and - as others have stated - just caused endless stress and inconvenience, and expense, to legitimate residents.

From the Guardian, much East Dulwich love in this long chippie article.... http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/food/story/0,,2130694,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

I'm all for people not making unnecessary journeys. School runs and local shop trips in particular. Both better on foot. People should use their cars less. (Perhaps even dry cleaners with ?80k vehicles, Huguenot.) But resorting to the blunt instrument of a CPZ can cause more problems than it solves, IMHO. Jamma points out that the charge (more like ?80-90 per car per annum) penalises poorer households - but the ?80-90 is often the thin end of the wedge. Visitors' permits at ?5+ per car per day, and the inevitable fines imposed on residents who thought they were legally parked in suddenly "suspended" bays: these are the really irksome annoyances which I've experienced living in other CPZ zones. They were unpleasant in the extreme, so I would be most eager to avoid the same unnecessary stress here in ED, which I think has one of the last remaining sane parking regimes in inner London (i.e. some restrictions where necessary, but not on literally every street).

Indeed, citizenED. Being so close to such a sought after high street, one of the prices one might expect to pay is lack of parking spaces at certain times. I really don't see how a CPZ will change this, given it actually reduces the amount of parking bays/space on each street available to the residents. It can only deter casual "out of area" shoppers at best, and I'm really not so sure they are the ones causing the squeeze on a daily basis (except maybe around market time and on Saturdays, but then again, that's the trade off for living near a very popular market...). Who are these mythical beasts? Come on, own up!!! Isn't it just more affluent residents owning more cars than previous generations of ED-ers? ...who will still be parking up in the same places if a CPZ were introduced...

Talking of pizza, just wondered if anyone has tried Firezza in Herne Hill, who deliver to SE22? (I think you might can eat in at their premmises too, but have never seen the place). I have to say, having tried them for the first time a few weeks back, it's in a completely different league to other delivery pizza places, and a cut well above the Pizza Express style. All fresh ingredients, and fantastic dough, sold by the half metre. They're a small London chain now, with 5 or 6 outlets apparently. Anyone else tried? Thoughts?

Actually, it was Camden Borough, nearer Belsize Park in fact, rather than the middle of Camden Town, where I was living when the CPZ was introduced a few years ago. At the time, not a dissimilar demographic to the current East Dulwich. As for Archway, just anecdotally, I've friends up there living in the residential streets with CPZ, and they find it impossible to find a space on their streets, despite the parking restrictions. I think at best a CPZ is a VERY short term solution, but the real issue is multiple car-owning households, who will park on the street whether or not the CPZ is there. As for visitors to local shops, if they are local to ED, they will HAVE a residents badge anyhow, so can still clog up the streets. But in any case, what happens always is that some bays on each residential street will be marked out for "pay and display" parking anyhow, which actually REDUCES the amount of road space currently available for residents, as they can't use those bays (only the resident bays). I wish I could say to the CPZ enthusiasts "try it and see" but the problem is there's no going back for everyone once it is imposed. I do believe a straw poll taken a year or two after its introduction would see the kind of complaints, dissatisfaction and the feeling of having been conned that some of us have experienced in CPZ's elsewhere.

Ko Wrote: > Told my other half about this thread and his > reaction was 'Oh god we don't want that stress'. > He lived in a CPZ for 2 years and it was a > nightmare. Parking wasn't any easier. Yes, bays > were suspended (sometimes when he wasn't parked on > his road but one road away) and his car got towed > away twice with a very hefty release fee and > inconvenience of having to go to some > not-very-near place and collect it. We still used > to have to circle around the block a couple of > times to find a space. That happened to me a couple of times up in Camden Borough, after they introduced their useless CPZ. However, I managed to get the money back after endless back and forth letter writing to the Council's lovely privatised parking enforcers. BUT of course, only after I first had to pay ?180 to get the car released (they charged more as a "holding fee" because I didn't notice for 2 days that it was gone, as I'd had to park three roads away - shows how well the CPZ - wasn't - working). And who in hell wants to spend their life stressing out writing letters to the idiots in the Council, even if it eventually gets me you a refund? Life is too short. > I agree though that some CPZ can work though as > Capt Birdseye has had experience of this. I > believe its really an argument that can't have a > right answer because there are so many pros and > cons on both sides!!!!!!! If someone can afford > the running costs of a second/third car and really > thinks it is a necessity rather than, as is often > the case, a luxury, then a second permit at even > ?500 may not put them off. > Quite! > I also agree with Bobby P that the lack of > restrictions is one less stress to deal with and > London already has enough stresses. Living off LL > or, in particular, on the road next to a station > is always risky. There is the convenience but > also the risk. However I know someone who often > drives to ED station even though he could easily > get a bus down LL! Indeed. It is definitely something most people would consider when buying their property. I simply don't get this idea that living close to the centre of London gives you an automatic right to a parking space outside your front door. It doesn't compute. And it still won't compute, I betcha, if we have a CPZ generously bestowed upon us. I bet the Council are rubbing their hands in glee at the mere thought of all those resident fines. Turkeys voting for Christmas....! (IMHO of course).

I guess it IS hazardous living next to the most popular shop on LL... And yes, the queuers should all walk rather than clogging up your quiet little street.

Where on Melbourne Grove are people having so many difficulties parking? I live at the end of Ashbourne, and even despite the water companies digging up most of the road, I'm always able to park within 100 yards of the house and usually right outside my house. Not that I think that should be a right for residents. We live in an urban area. If you want that kind of parking, then you should try village life. I do see some busy streets off Lordship, but I am very unconvinced that a CPZ would do anything other than cause the residents extra hassle (assuming the cost thereof is a "reasonable" ?80-90 per annum). As I've posted before on many threads on this topic, I've had the CPZ experience up in Camden borough, and it did NOTHING for the parking situation, merely added to the stress of living, with the car wrongly ticketed, bays suspended without notice, visiting elderly relatives unable to park as the visitors permits were so restricted.... etc. etc. If it had actually helped parking, I would be in favour. I see a very similar area here in Dulwich, and reckon exactly the same would happen if a CPZ were introduced. I'm interested to know how many of the advocates on this forum have actually lived under a CPZ regime elsewhere (and maybe have better experiences). I personally find the lack of restrictions here a selling point, which many people living under CPZ's tell me they envy. And BTW, not a crazy car user here, but more often pedestrian or cyclist, for the record. Just sticking up for the counter argument as there seems a rather large consensus in favour. I wonder if they would be so keen on it, once they've had the fun of living with the extra stress it tends to bring to daily life. Grass is always greener (yes, perhaps more grass would be a good thing).

Some very funny posts on this thread... But just bringing it back to the pool for one moment - is Fusion's logical extension of the women only swimming sessions still in place? The "staff and surveyors" only session? Or are women and (occasionally) men allowed back in now?

A very pleasant evening in a great venue. Good to meet some of the 'legendary' faces of this forum, Messrs Piers, Huguenot, EDKiwi etc, and to chat to many others. Really liked the most expensive wine we tasted, of course, so yes a very good sales technique. And indulged in one of their pies, which wasn't bad either! Thanks indeeed to Kate for laying this on and all the best with the expanded business (which was nearly a Starbucks, for those who weren't there! Phew...)

Paul, I am very interested in your Lordship Lane proposals, on the other thread. Good luck with some of those, which hopefully will make the areas more pleasant for pedestrians. Something we would all like. As for parking, there are already parking restrictions on Lordship and some on the adjacent roads. However, while your faraway home of Kendal does indeed seem to be a parking Utopia (you get 2 FULL PERMITS? For only ?60?), I know that a) Southwark, like Camden, charge more than Kendal both for the annual and daily permits, b) they are much more restrictive with guest parking - i.e. you are only allowed so many permits a month with restricted hours - and c) suspended bays are commonplace in London, where the roads are always being dug up by somebody, or for building works/skips. I can only reiterate my experience in Camden Borough, where the CPZ caused residents only grief, hassle and expense, with no relief on parking. I see the roads around Lordship both during weekdays and on weekends, and while some roads are definitely more congested than others when the market is open, for instance, there are spaces. At other times of day and week, it seems to me there are lots of spaces. No, they're not going to be right outside one's home, but that is a daft luxury for any city dweller to expect. If you want that, move to the countryside. I simply don't think there is a critical problem with parking here in ED. Melbourne Grove most often has tons of spaces. All free and easy for residents. I know other may differ, but I've never had to park more than a couple of hundred yards away from the house, and mostly can park within 30 feet of it. Such small freedoms do make life more pleasant, and I have the direct contrast of my previous abode to compare it with. So I'm afraid I do stand by my experiences in North London where the CPZ simply didn't do any good at all - except for the Council's coffers of course.

Paul Thanks for your comments and I'm pleased your CPZ is working for you. I wonder where you live... I do need to correct you on your assumptions, however. I lived previously in Belsize Park, first with no CPZ and then after its introduction. I can safely say that parking there was INFINITELY more difficult than East Dulwich is today (i.e. much harder to find a space). It was hard before they introduced residents' parking. And afterwards? Absolutely no difference. I still had to regularly drive several roads away to park the car. It did, however, make a difference in other ways... Shelling out for the yearly permit. Plus another ?5 each for visitors' permits which I needed when, for instance, my aged parents came to stay from up north (and these permits only lasted 4 hours, were restricted in numbers, and caused endless practical problems). In addition, I was often ticketed and towed when bays were suspended on no notice, making my legally parked car outside my house (or several roads away if I was unlucky) suddenly a target for the privatised commission-based parking vultures. After writing to the Council on at least 5 such occasions, the tickets were rescinded. But why should residents need the extra hassle and aggravation of doing so? Or losing their car to the tow-trucks? I can tell you the extra anxiety isn't worth it. I'm not in any way one of the "car lobby". I work in Kings Cross, and by far the quickest way from ED to my office is on the bicycle, which I use regularly. Public transport on this journey is unreliable: one can never be sure to arrive on time (involves too many changes). Around ED, I will normally walk or cycle - though occasionally the car is of use. My car is a necessity of my job. One stupid problem we have in ED is not being able to use pre-pay Oyster on the trains. As my work entails different and varied journeys around London, it becomes a complete nightmare working out which ticket is cheaper: 2 singles, a day travelcard, an Oyster on the bus? I often end up paying massively over the odds for the day's journeys by making the wrong decision at the start of the day. But you really shouldn't polarise the CPZ issue into car-owners and other residents along some simplistic Green lines. Driving a car does not make me less environmentally aware. Wanting to live in a pleasant area where the Council (the imcompetent freeholders on my property!) can't get their hands on another area of my daily life is not a crime. The lack of CPZ here, believe me, is a blessing, and a hugely pleasant change from Belsize Park. Finally, for the record, I can always find a space on Melbourne Grove, not necessarily right outside my house, but so what? In a city, I don't believe it's a God-given right to park immediately outside your house. The parking problem is nothing like as bad here as it was up in Belsize. So why even consider bringing in something which will REDUCE the quality of life? Those who offend with their three cars will simply pay up and park on the streets. The fees and fines benefit the Council. They don't help residents.

I'm afraid those of you asking for CPZ's are in for a shock if they actually bring one in. It will make NO DIFFERENCE to whether you can park outside your houses. Parking DOES NOT improve if a CPZ is introduced. It will, however, cost you money not just in the annual charge, but in extra fees/permits for visitors, and (for those who have vehicles) horrible hassles and possible fines when bays are suspended etc. In practice, it is just another needless annoyance of urban living, another thing to worry about, which reduces your quality of life just a little bit more. As I've said in previous threads on this subject, I've had the experience of free parking roads being turned into CPZ's at my previous address, and all it brought was endless hassle, arguments with the council over wrongly issued parking tickets, expense and major restrictions on who could visit me (i.e. no one with a car for a start). It is CERTAINLY a revenue earner for the Council first and foremost, and anyone who thinks this really benefits local people (car owning or otherwise) is merely falling for the big con that is the CPZ. I live in Melbourne Grove, am a pedestrian/cyclist who owns one car for work, but - from hard experience - I truly believe a CPZ would make this area a much less pleasant place to live. In fact the lack of one is actually one of the things which makes the quality of life in ED better than other areas. Take it from me, you will regret it if you fall for the sweet utopian words the Councils use to rip off gullible residents and blight whole areas.

A friend of mine did the recent wine tasting course run by Green and Blue over a number of weeks. He and those on the course with him found it so good they are planning to continue unofficially on their own now the course is over. He has only good things to say about the management and staff at Green and Blue. I told him that my impression had been that the space/layout was a little intimidating as a wine shop, and the wine bar at the back unknown to many - and he was surprised to hear my opinion, knowing how much the owners care about wine and about their business... So I reckon well worth a look again, and certainly the refurbishments and expansion should be a good thing. Hell, I might even sign up for their next wine course...

not2late I might indeed be making up the "ethnic" swim, at least looking at their winter schedule (although apparently their 'women only' swim is partly to cater to Muslim women who can't swim if there are men around...). The actual list of pool-hogging activities this month - and don't get me wrong, all these are fine - except that they close the whole pool for hours each day to general swimmers - consists of "adult/child lessons, jelly babies, schools sessions, water aerobics, 50+ swimming, canoeing lessons, swim school, women only swims ... " and for some reason they close the pool entirely in the middle of Wednesday for "staff training". Wonder why they can't either close an hour earlier or open an hour later to accommodate this training, rather than chucking everyone out mid-afternoon and letting them in 60 minutes afterwards!!!