SeanMacGabhann

Still - it's all something to mull over on Saturday isn't it ;-) But I would say it isn't about government reigning in spending now it's ADMITTED it's level of debt - it's far more to do with how low it is in the polls against the Tories and needing to be seen to be TOUGH on scroungers. It's one of the reasons New Labour is morally more bankrupt than the Tories

Absolutely - free wardens to check if people have parked illegally. free monitoring of traffic levels to see if more bays are needed. F*** it - just paint white lines - it's the future!!!

wise words xone, wise words. Very probably true But as I so often rail against people who blame "government" or "councils" for everything - surely the one thing I care about which is very much "of the people" is worth defending? If not... then maybe the problem is (gasp!!!) the people themselves and not any "outside" force!

well precisely Indiepanda - just because insurance companies mess up so often shows it's not a model to follow! Do these not strike you as arbitrary numbers/targets? What if only 250000 people need that "treatment" - hey - targets have to be met!

30 mins to mayfair????? I used to walk from Victoria to Berkley Sq in 15 daily....

I'm not saying tyres and plants aren't being stolen... I'm not saying that. But this is yet another wearying thread on how "ohh life has all gone a bit shit has't it??" The usual crap that surfaces when the economy takes a dip. Or just because enough people are on the forum who are into it. But I Don't Get It. Bad stuff happens to most of is regularly - if we bore people with all the details they (rightly) shun us. the reason this forum has attracted so many people is because of it's quirkiness and willingness to enjoy life's absurdities. Like the good friends we have.... the South London press is there for us if we want lurid shite (and even then it has us down over the Lambeth Country Fair debacle - heads will roll!!) - can we not be better than that???

Cheers Indie if the real objective was to target class 2 and figure out how best to motivate them then I can't see too much of a problem - but the reality is.. that isn't the motivation behind this effort Plus - what is so wrong with class 2 REALLY? Are all of us so perfect and efficient we don't need "lessons" in how to "be better motivated" and "be better citizens"? Sometimes it is good to just be.... demotivated and have "blinds drawn all day, nothing to do nothing to say". But friends, family and our inner core will kick in and remotivate us usually - not many people will benefit from a stick beating us back to work. A few people I'm sure.. but not enough to warrant THIS

Does "be aware" in this case mean "stay up all night and look out your windows or else you might lose your tyres and plants"? or does it mean "sometimes it happens - hey ho"

OK - another question. Is the fee in any way avoidable? Can you travel to work, park outside Westminster and walk the rest of the way? Does it necessarily mean doubling the cost of your weekly bike bill?

to Strawbs - I don't know you well enough to be 100% sure of comment but I will say this - you don't have a weight problem. I don't want to blow smoke up your ass, but IMO you are a fine figure of a woman. IF you have a problem it's that you have bought into the beauty/size myth that permeates so much of our culture... but again that's just an opinion - don't take it wrong Jamma is not being rude - direct yes, but not rude. Well maybe a BIT rude. But not wrong to requote - "you are entitled to your opinion - you are not entitled to your facts"

and so the problem is what? Society isn't an homogenous blob is it - just because some people don't like being charged for X, doesn't make it a bad administrative decision surely?

Yep - it is a moving story. Well told too. But do you think there is a major divide, breaking down along these lines: sad cases like the above AND subjective cases which need "retraining" AND out and out scroungers what percentage would you put those 3 categories? And do you think category 1 would not suffer as a result of these reforms? I KNOW 2 and 3 exist - I just don't believe they are they main bulk of claimants. And these reforms are easy and pathetic macho posturing which play to the gallery. If the reforms are pushed through as claimed (and be honest, which reforms ever are) it will not make one JOT of difference to your life or mine. But those people in category 1 (ie genuine) will see a lot of people humiliated or worse. I have been knocked on here before for suggesting that people who litter deserve the punishment they get (moral high horse etc) - and yet people are happy to see reforms like this passed, knowing that innocent people will be turned over? For what - a tiny tiny percent of government funds misused? My mind boggles sometimes...

all that last post is missing is "Yours, disgusted of Kent"

sorry MM but that is just repulsive. Apart from this idea that ALL of our money is being wasted, the reality is somewhat different - how, as an incentivised officer do you deal with: Letter in today's Guardian: Up until three years ago I was a member of the working class (Benefits clampdown, July 21). I have no qualifications and I raised my family by working hard and earning little. As such I was never able to have either a pension, a mortgage or insurance. Three years ago, within six days of each other, I had a heart attack and my wife had heart failure (totally unconnected). We as a small family were destroyed. My wife was in intensive care for a month and my daughter took an overdose believing us both dead. What happened to us as a family can happen to any family. We rallied and my son put himself through university by working in a pub and looking after himself - without a single penny from us because we had nothing. My point is real poverty grows on you and as the things you have become obsolete or break, the poverty deepens. We are now three adults living on ?23 a day. Admittedly we have our rent and rates paid. As heart patients we have been instructed to stay warm in the winter as the cold thickens the blood. To this end I contacted my gas and electric supplier in a bid to have the prepayment meters taken out of my home as the tariff was too high and my income was so low. I was told it would cost ?200. I told the supplier that the meters were in place from a former tenant and I had no credit issues with them. They told me it was not their problem. I went to the ombudsman and now I can have the meters taken out if I pay for the energy by direct debit, the rub being that I have to pay in advance, costing me 79% of my income in one month for this to happen. So it can't and they know it. Every day I shop for the house. I am conscious of the need to eat healthily but I cannot afford to. Every day I walk past the grapes and look at the price of strawberries. We eat greens and pulses, and we eat pork, but cannot afford chicken. We do not drink, smoke, go out nor entertain and life is hard and getting harder, not just for us but for many. The television is our only window on a life we once led. We sit destroyed by poverty and watch the world go by as if we were dead but have yet to fall over. While watching the TV we see MPs and MEPs who spend more on taxis than we get to live on and they are telling the country they are going to get tough on us and people like us because we live on benefits. In relative terms we are poor and getting poorer, but those who represent us are completely oblivious to our needs. I can speak, but have no voice, and those claiming to represent me have failed me. As the gas and electric prices rise for all, they may also become out of reach for many. Now I fear the winter and hope for nothing. The BBC news now tells me my benefits will be scrapped and I will be tested (I have been tested twice already). I will have to bare all my privacy in the hope of retaining the right to survive the winter. So I ask myself, why can people demand the destruction of the poor? The answer is simple. There are 600-odd vacancies in Westminster every four years. The job, if you can get it, pays a king's ransom and all that is required is that you follow whatever is in vogue. At the moment, acting Dickensian is all the rage. Name and address supplied

I am being a bit Devil's Advocate here as well - I'm not just saying "tough luck" and I can see where you are coming from - but I'm trying to balance things out. I was thinking (on the bus this morning - it's great for that ;-) ) that there isn't anything anyone can do these days without people crying foul.. For example - Bus stops - too many of 'em. Some of them are barely 20 yards/metres apart. Think how much journeys would be speeded up if they were reduced by 20-30%. But if that was proposed then various lobby groups would complain, say they pay taxes, fares so they can have a bus stop nearby etc. Infirm people would find it too far to walk etc. Which, if all these arguments were true, let's install more bus stops! But then that would be opposed by ... and so on and so on. Slightly off-topic I guess but I used it as an example of how impossible it is to do anything these days

well the economic situation isn't "ours" exclusively - an awful lot of countries are in the same do do. Spending reserves of money on stupid wars is not clever but the current financial problems stem more from the crazy banking systems and their lack of regulatory oversight A charge isn't always a revenue-raising tax. It can be an economic tool to change behaviour. And tax isn't to stop the general public rising up and stringing the PM from a tree - but to stop it rising up and flaking into EACH OTHER. Things are getting more expensive. But that is only compared to recent prices. Things are still, overall, pretty inexpensive compared to not so long ago. People have selective memories. It wouldn't matter so much but people can hoist themselves into quite an indignant rage with very little provocation it seems

An oft quoted line about buses (from non-bus users obviously) is that they take up space AND they are empty. So if bike-riders did take to the buses, where's the harm in that? I jest obviously I'm not saying I'm for the charge per say but nor do I see it as the end of the world. It's not a tax. It's a charge for a service. Ditto car parking charges (which are a hell of a lot more than ?1.50) a day. More people using bikes = more requirement for bays = more overhead in costs Congestion charge is seperate again - of course it's designed to discourage you from driving. Nowt wrong with that IMO. And even if you think there is plenty wrong with that, give it a few more years. Mark my words, time will come when people will be complaining about Govenments not doing enough to discourage driving, back "when it wasn't too late" kford - you haven't seen any enhancements, but then you haven't seen any charges yet have you? It's a discussion document. And Brendan was on your side - he wasn't saying they should get on a bus. How much anyone ALREADY pays in road charge/tax/ blah blah isn't relevant. Ditto petrol. You are consuming a resource that's fast running out. What do you WANT people to do? If you do get on my bus, I always say hello. But I'm not a chatter person in the morning ;-)

well, it's not just introducing a charge is it - a number of "enhancements" are also proposed Horses Mouth Bikes do take up much less space than cars, but every time a bay is extended or a new one introduced, it does have an associated impact. And ?1.50 a day for unlimted bay use seems benign compred to ?2 for a single bus journey for example

* mutter * flagrant mis-use of mystical powers

giggirl - v interesting! Do keep us posted - Iwill probably head down to that

mockney piers in mis-use of "their" shocker!!!

AFTER 8pm on Saturday...

so, anyone watch it last night on FX? I recorded it - partly to skip ads, but I'll also try and build up a backlog of episodes before I start. So, no spoilers please I saw a picture in a review this morning of one of the news guys and saw it was Clark Johnson - one of the main characters in the direct predecessor to the Wire - Homicide Life in the Street. Think he directed a few of the early Wire episodes as well And for a show on a tiny satellite channel, boy did it generate some columns in the papers at the weekend!

I've decided to reply to neither thread lest I appear to be favouring one over the other oh wait... darn! To answer the question, of the two of us I spend most of the time cooking. I also try and do the "tidy as I go" thing to avoid the worst excesses of cookageddon.

Before you even think of a hd (hi def) box you need a hd tv. If you have one of those them a hd box usually means a satellite box. . Such as a sky box. But the one with hd capability. Only about 20 channels show hd content at the mo and if you dont love movies or sport its really not worth it. If you do love them and have the money then they are lovely. Not essential. . . But then again neither is any tv. Except for watching the wire. Obviously. .