first mate

Sometimes EDF does feel a bit like a virtual House of Commons with its own little set of self-styled big beasts (or even BSD's). All good old testosterone loaded 'banter' and the inevitable riposte that if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. I do think that most see it for what it is. Just yawn and close your eyes if it gets too much- its only big boys playground stuff after all. Sometimes it can also be quite amusing. Other times it's well.... awfully predictable.

The issue is not M&S, it is the size and ambition of the application and how well it fits with the available space/location.

*Bob* Well said.

Try getting a photo if you can. If these guys are openly flouting H&E my guess its they'll lie about it anyway and it is your word against theirs.

bonaome, Yes, you're are right on that.

Well you on the one hand you accuse those wishing to lodge concerns as being dilettantes and on the other criticise them for asking for a little more time to gather information from more knowledgable sources. Councillors or planners do not always know everything about an application. There are good planning decisions and there are not so good and I imagine that the devil is often in the detail. So this is not a judgement of councillors or planners, it is simply being realistic in trying to make the very most of the consultation opportunity. Actually it won't take that long to get across this, but it is my understanding (I may be wrong) that most planning applications take about 8-13 weeks to be considered, less than seems to be the case here.

Huguenot, In your view. Though I think it is slightly absurd to portray the reasonable concerns of neighbours as malicious interference in process, delaying tactics and attempts to drive the freeholder to bankruptcy and ruin. That sounds much more conspiratorial. It will take some time to get through the application, to compare it with the last, as well as research some areas that appear to be problematic. A degree of planning savvy and know how is required to do that properly. A little more time, beyond 3rd January, would be helpful. We are talking days not months. However, James Barber indicates that this is not an absolute deadline, so we'll see. Have you read either application by the way?

Ho hum.

Huguenot, an opinion can be vague and ill-informed or it can be based on facts. The fact is that the last proposal was rejected, possibly in part because of pertinent objections raised by locals. On that basis there will be those who want to compare this new application to the last one, to see what the differences, if any, there are and to comment. These are not delaying tactics. It is also the case that planners occasionally miss details which are in breach of planning guidelines, but which are picked up by members of the public- I believe this was the case with the last application.

Marmora Man, Agreed. As you imply, licensing of cars and speed fines do not stop boy racers. However, existing legislation could do with tweaking (DDA etc.) The good dog owner would more than likely muzzle a seriously aggressive dog right now. The type of person that deliberately breeds and /or owns seriously aggressive dogs is probably going to break a number of laws as well. The inherent problem is in policing/monitoring/enforcement. I do think councils might implement byelaws where a dog should be kept on a lead ( and therefore under a degree of control)on the street, though the ne'er do wells would probably ignore that too.

I'm sorry but momentary showing of teeth to other dogs can be a perfectly normal part of canine beahviour and does not mean that the dog is 'aggressive'. After all, it is how some mothers teach their pups to back off the teat at weaning. Some dogs may become more aggressive when muzzled- I have certainly seen this for myself. With respect, I think finding a clear definition for aggression is difficult and once you begin to examine what we mean by 'aggression' the problem is clear.

It may have been a lurcher.

I'd worry slightly about what is meant by 'aggression'. Many dogs will show degrees of aggression in certain circumstances, especially to each other, but also as the result of poor ownership or handling. I'd also worry about handing the aggression assessment over to vets. On another note, it is a shame that councils are not more proactive in working with canine trainers and behaviourists who have a real service to offer the community. Finding community centres or parks that will allow space for any dog training is almost impossible, I wish the councils would drop the blinkers on this.

Seems like Bellenden may be the new ED/Northcross rd, with a number of new little indie shops. The Xmas street event was great. Think if M&S lands it probably will make the way for more chains to open in ED. Do we know if a chain store is also involved in the garden shop development by the station? I've heard it rumoured that some streets where old cracked pavement has been dug up and replaced with tarmac will be paved properly, but only if certain chains move in, so presumably the shops would in some way be funding this work?

Marmora Man, Thanks and it is good to know that those comments will be "taken into account in deciding the application". So immediate neighbours need a little more time to digest and consider the application properly, perhaps seeking advice about bits they do not understand so they can make informed comments.

Soutnwarks own guidelines on planning consultations: What can I comment on? The following checklist gives examples of the type of thing you can comment on that will be taken into account in deciding the application: Design and size of the development Use proposed Traffic generation and parking Will it be a nuisance because of noise etc Will it fit in with the surrounding area Will it affect my amenity in terms of daylight, privacy etc. How it complies with planning policies and guidance Possible Section 106 planning contributions or benefits for the community that could be secured from the proposal Any other relevant material planning or environmental issues.

I have not heard of this trainer but having had a quick look at his site I would say his advice to 'practice removing your dog's food' without proper context or comment, does not invite confidence.

bonaome, so you'd rather no be involved?

Huguenot, Unless they happen upon a genuine planning issue- not beyond the bounds of probability. I'm also not of the view that planners never ever make bad decisions or mistakes. That aside, I'd be interested to know if the opinions/observations of residents next the site carry any weight whatsoever or are, as you state, sought merely to add a bit of flavour. Perhaps James or another planning savvy councillor, would enlighten us? Why even have a consultation if this is so?

Not a breed for the faint-hearted, as you know they have a strong guard instinct, unlike the staffy, which does not. I'm sure you will have already been in touch with breed specialists but just in case try the UK Boerboel club http://www.ukbc.co.uk/rightbreed.html - breed specialists will often come up with good tips in terms of training and what to expect. Any dog with a guard instinct needs to be sociliazed to the max with strong, confident leadership from its owners. I applaud you for seeing what needs to be done and for looking for a good training context. Again, do not leave it to someone else to train your dog. If the dog lives with you it must also respect and listen to you.

Another hung hunk is on the forum and this one helps ladies meet their wildest fantasies, for free- but he is not a murderer, he says.

I think they are all too shy...perhaps you are just too well hung..hunk.

e-dealer, everything you say makes perfect sense but are you inferring that the opportunity to object/comment- which is part of the current process, is a kind of irrelevant, wild goose chase?

Have you considered attending a dog training class in the evening? The best thing your puppy can learn is basic obedience and how to behave around other adult dogs without causing offence. Pups have already learned about other pups in the litter- learning impulse control around adults is the key, how to meet, greet and play politely. A trainer may train your dog for you, but it is far better that you do the training yourself since the primary bond is with you not your trainer and you wnat and need your dog to learn to behave with you. What breed is your puppy? Training classes are held at Beckenham Dog Training and at South Eastern Dog Training in South Norwood- (Sandra on 07852469499).

Huguenot, My point is that it is not "within reason" for those residents who need sufficent time to get a handle on the new application and to lodge objections, should there be any. The current time span is inconvenient and very short...3rd Jan. It is not about asking for a delay of months, just a bit more time, perhaps not in the run up to Christams and the New Year (one of the oldest planning tricks in the book, say some). These are not 'delaying tactics' but a reasonable request from those nearest to the site to have time to read and understand the application and its implications and where it differs to the last application, which was rejected. The freeholder and developer are looking after their interests, some of us residents just need a reasonable amount of time to look after ours. Please remember that we are not planners, it may not be as easy for us to quickly interpret the current application. As an aside I for one cannot get into much of the information online and I don't have time to make a special journey over to the planning office.