first mate

Lady D, I'm not quite sure what you mean by submissive dogs. A dog can be made fearful of other dogs by owners letting their dog bound up to any dog in a rambunctious manner. Please bear in mind that some dogs and breeds are better than others both at reading and displaying social signals. A dog that looks overwhelmed is not necessarily submissive or inviting attack, they simply do not want to engage with that particular dog/s. Likewise, a dog that bounds up to another uninvited or in a very pushy way either has no manners/is inadequately socialised, or is from a breed that is less naturally attuned to social signalling- both staffs and labradors are examples. I'm sorry but I do think the notion that some dogs 'invite attack' is misconstrued and is often used to blame the hapless owner for having a 'submissive or fearful' dog. Some dogs and pups get told off for being over familiar with other dogs- owners need to monitor what the pup/dog is doing and whether the dog they are approaching looks comfortable with the fact. Dogs initially express discomfort in quite subtle ways but all owners should know what those signals are and take action. Also breeds developed for particular functions will have a strong desire to act out the behaviours they are hardwired for- collies nip and herd; terriers hunt and kill; hounds chase and kill. Puppy training and socialisation has to accomodate and train around these various urges. Labradors and other gun dog breeds have been selectively bred to be overfriendly; for instance, lab pups can often barge into situations heedless of the other dog's signals to bee off- and get out of my face. However, labs are also highly responsive and biddable and can be trained from puppyhood to greet other dogs politely. All of us owners just need to be a heck of a lot more aware about the dogs we own and the dogs other people own. If you just want to switch off in the park and walk around in a daze then don't have a dog. Lady D, well done for having a good Staff. However, though I know it is a natural urge I would still try to discourage chasing of small prey in town, if only to set an example. Also dogs in hot pursuit of furries are not controllable and running out of the park is a possbility. I have a bugbear about a red staff that jumps in and out of the Japanese garden to chase squirrels- the owner has no control at all.

I'm not sure how James Barber could help? Simple measures would include the requirement that all dogs are always walked on lead on the street. I still cannot understand why this is not implemented as the only people I ever see walking dog off lead are young bull breed owners of a certain type. In the park there should be certain sections where dogs are kept on lead. This would give people (both dog-woning and non dog owning) the opportunity to avoid other offlead dogs if they want. I note that some dog owners are still letting their dogs off in the Japanese Garden, where there are notices quite clearly asking owners to keep dogs on a lead. Why? At entrances to parks and around the cafe area dogs should be kept on a lead. I frequently see dogs meandering off lead around the cafe and owners letting their dogs off at the narrow passageway past the toilets. If you see a dog on the lead in a park don't let your dog go bounding up to it- this is bad manners, bad practice and can cause problems. If you are unable to call your dog away then you need to go back to training classes until you can. Dogs need to be well socialised and allowed to play together but where there is a mssive differtence in size and strength it is not hard to see how problems can develop. All play should be carefully supervised and stopped if it looks to be getting OTT. It is important to make a distinction between 'spats'- which will happen between dogs and are generally all about display and warnings and 'attacks' where puncture wounds are left.Nonetheless, you do not want a tiny dog getting into a 'spat' with a very large dog because there is the possibility that the smaller dog feels overwhelmed and becomes aggressive. The smaller dog starts to dislike larger dogs and then possibly all dogs. If you have a large dog, try to consider the smaller dog owner a bit more. Prey drive is a different issue and involves different neural pathways to other types of aggression which tend to develop out of fear. Dogs that play in a very pushy way and use their teeth a lot, delivering nips while chasing should be monitored and have their chase instinct redirected. Owners of these kinds of dogs need to train around different outlets for prey drive. Don't let your dog chase squirrels teach it to chase a ball instead. Bottom line any dog developed for hunting- all terriers, all hounds and many other groups, have the capacity to develop/show strong prey drive. These dogs needs to be taught as pups to redirect that drive into appropriate outlets. If you cannot be bothered to spend the time to do this, do not buy/own one of these breeds.

I think the point is that this particular dog appears to have something of a history. Aside from Fuzzyboots, I've counted three other incidents that have appeared on this thread that all seem to have involved this same dog- a blue staff is fairly distinctive. Given the apparent history, I find the shock and contrition of the owner a little unconvincing- unless he is in massive denial and some people do bury their head in the sand where their dog's behaviour is concerned. This particular dog will need a massive amount of structured training and may never be wholly trustworthy with other dogs, especially small dogs. It should not be let off lead in the park or on the streets and probably will need muzzling for now. Will the owner comply?

Specialist advice on the law can be sought at Trevor Cooper http://www.doglaw.co.uk/

Fuzzyboots, Many thanks for taking the time to write more about this awful incident, especially under the circumstances. Yes, it sounds like the interaction between the dogs went wrong, but it sounds as though this dog has attacked a few times. It seems that the dog might start off playing but it rolls over into something else, or the dog treats the other dog as though it is a toy. Given the opportunity I am sure this dog will try to do the same again. It is known that bull breed types from what would have been fighting stock are not great at reading the body language of other dogs or of signalling their own 'intentions'. For this reason owners need to be extra vigilant with them around other dogs. As you say, they tend to be good/extremely biddable with people and children and I think this misleads a lot of owners who cannot grasp that while they may be reliable with humans they are less likely than the average dog to be reliabel with other dogs. Again, I am so sorry for your loss and I am sure the local 'dog community' will help and support you in any way we can. Most of all in trying to get some redress for you.

Sorry, having read this thread properly it sounds as though 'Blue' has been attacking other people's dogs for a number of years and has now progressed to killing. Surely it would be worth collating all of the evidence, with witness statements and seeing if some kind of civil action can be launched against the owner- otherwise he is just going to carry on. He clearly knows what his dog is capable of doing.

This is awful, I am so sorry for the owners, the little boy and the dog. People need to be aware that many different types of dog can have a strong prey drive and, unfortunately, some staffy types have it within them to view small dogs as prey. The fact that 'Blue' was shaking the poor dog that died indicates this. Owners of these types of dog need to be particularly vigilant and UNDERSTAND the drives and motivations of the breeds they choose to own and take the necessary precautions. The owner of 'Blue' sounds utterly irresponsible and, in my view should not be allowed to own a dog at all. The fact that this dog has performed this action once means it is almost certain to do it again. We all need to be vigilant and report this person if he is seen out with the dog immediately. A dog like this cannot be let of lead around other dogs and my concern would be that the owner not only lets it off in the park but walks it offlead on the streets. There is the additional concern that if someone tried to intervene in an attack on their dog they might also end up badly injured.

Real early stuff

I think it is fair enough that street cleaners will not wnat to pick up poos with bags, but there are cheap handheld devices that could easily be used http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?q=dog+scooper&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&channel=np&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=4411412128147679595&sa=X&ei=kL9hT4ywA8W68gOPmcG7CA&ved=0CHUQ8wIwAQ Of course, ideally everyone sould pick up after their own dog and I am in favour of on-the-spot fines for those caught not picking up, just as I would be for any deliberate littering. Has anyone else noted high levels of broken glass everywhere, again? I fail to see how you can accidentally drop and smash a bottle without realising- incredibly dangerous too.

The fact that this dog simply allowed itself to be beaten over the head by the woman is proof of a good baseline temperament. However, if you were trying to turn a dog human-aggressive I can think of no better way to start. Poor dog! I's also be slightly concerned about the dog standing over another dog with its hackles up- if this is what you meant by its neck hair being raised- this can sometimes, though not always, be a prelude to the other dog getting a pasting. Sounds like this woman is totally unsuitable for dog ownership and the rest of us suffer, most of all the dog!

Hugo, H said ------------------------------ People get confused about dyslexia (unwitting pun) - it's not about spelling problems, and those spelling problems which are created are usually quite specific, not general grammatical rules. True dyslexia is much broader than simply confusing or transposing letters, for example mistaking ?b? and ?d.". In general, symptoms of DRD may include: - Difficulty determining the meaning (idea content) of a simple sentence - Difficulty learning to recognize written words - Difficulty rhyming What's your source for that info? I'd always thought,perhaps erroneously, that dyslexia was an umbrella term that covered a range of things, and that most involve problems with memory processing. In this way problems with category, especially that sound the same- two/too/to- might arise as a result of dyselxia.

I saw a red robin and a red coloured grey squirrel at ED station yesterday!

James it could be that the 'anti bite' foul-tasting ingredient is not effective, especially if the dog is being worked up and encouraged to bite at the trees. A cage might be better. Anyone that sees dogs doing this should report it to the park warden immediately. Anyhow, it is the owners that need to be caught and dealt with- antisocial behaviour in its myriad forms is a problem for us all. Of course, in some cases the trees are just ripped at by people sans dog, I've seen young males doing this in the park. The regular grafitti damage to the Japanese summerhouse is a pain, but at least the bowling pavilion has not been burned down again. However, a couple of years back vandals did set fire to some trees on the Rye. What was it you were saying about banning those causing damage from the park and streets grumpy?

It's been said many times before, but since dogs defecate up to four times a day all you need is one rogue owner and the surrounding streets will quite quickly get filled with turds, giving the impression that there are lots of lazy owners about. ED is not overwhelmed with dog owners that do not pick up, the vast majority do. Perhaps the offlead Staffy needs tracing to the owner and a quiet word might be in order. Dogs offlead on our streets are a bad thing; the type of owner who can't even be bothered to put their dog on a lead may also be too lazy to pick up.

BNG, I agree, let us leave this thread to the 'clever' people.

I also think free bays should be looked at, just to see if it would maximise parking spaces. One way streets at the station end of streets like Derwent Grove. Routing traffic round towards Dulwich hospital site where some land could be used to provide low cost parking permits for dulwich businesses with multiple car use (estate agents) and commuters. Limit of cars per household- ideally one.

I agree with peckamboy, time for some constructive thinking. I too suspect that James made some kind of promise to those residents suffering on Derwent Grove and this might explain his apparent tunnel vision last night. As an aside I happened to walk through Derwent Grove this morning and was somewhat suprised to find it densely parked by with 5 spaces available (10am). Perhaps it was a coincidental blip. Anyhow, it is important that some way is found to alleviate the parking problem for those closest to the station. I wondered if uncontrolled and free marked out parking spaces might help? In that it might ensure the maximum amount of cars can fit onto the street at any given time? Of course, it might make it worse- has anyone done the maths on this? Could the street be made no entrance at the station end, routing non resident parkers round closer to the hospital where some kind of cheap parking deal might be effected for commuters? Just seen Peckham boy also suggests one way streets. Worth considering?

Oh dear.

f71, Were you there last night? Given the strength of your views and vitriol I'm sure you must have made the effort. If you were there you'll know that along with the majority effort to halt the steamrollering through of CPZ, were also an overwhelming number of calls for some creative thinking to relieve parking in affected roads. The view from the floor and from petitioners and a majority of councillors was that there had to be a better way than CPZ. You are right about James et al as conviction polititicans- they came across as blinkered, sticking rigidly to their CPZ dogma, come what may. It did not invite confidence.

Yes, big cheer for EDF. I was wondering if it could be nominated for a Southwark civic award/ or has this already been done? Without the EDF we may not had the result we got tonight.

I was shocked by James tonight, it is one thing to bravely/pig headedly hold one's line in the face of overwhelming opposition, but this was something else.... a unique perspective on the figures. I would also like to thank Giles Sirett, Max Sharp (hope I got the name right) and Gill (?) who all did a sterling job.

Agenda and address for community council meeting tonight- start time 7pm. Please everyone, try to be there. http://moderngov.southwarksites.com/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=3992&T=0

James, But you cannot be sure that, as you stated earlier in this thread, CPZ "will have the desired affect", that means it is not a clear solution either.

I wonder what people think of Scottish independeance? Should only the people of Scotland (Derwent Grove) get to vote or should the whole UK (grisett and co) decide on Scottish independence. Do people think that more than 50% of the whole population should vote for independence of just a majority? Eitherway, it would be really appreciated if the CPZ thread could stay there. James you wrote the above on your other thread- but I am transposing as you have asked for the other thread to be kept clear. It's disingenuous. The consulation 'consulted' with a zone and that zone returned a majority voice against CPZ. If you are now stating that the only valid voices are those on two streets, then why was the consultation not limited to those two street

Gsirett, You know how Southwark would get a trial CPZ removed- by a street by street consultation ;) You are right, a trial would simply be the council foot in the door, and CPZ permanently.