Alec John Moore

Hi James I think it's useful to point out that the first part of the Soil Association's strap line is healthy soil. A bit obvious, perhaps, but really important given that the organic approach to food production is based on sustainability. See this link for info about the serious soil degradation problem the planet faces: http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2012/04/12/why-soil-matters/ Apart from that, organic food just tastes better, in my view, anyway. Alec

This thread has helped me think a bit more about why I don't eat meat. I've never felt the need to justify it although friends and colleagues always find it easy to label me a veggie despite the fact that I'm quite clear that I eat fish. I agree that the tendency to label us gets in the way of a helpful debate about the broader consequences of meat eating. We all need to overcome our prejudices about what are in effect lfestyle choices for most of us on this forum and recognise that if we don't begin to make the changes now, voluntarily, then we will be faced with increasingly limited choices for how we live in the future. Reading that last bit again I see it's uncharacteristic for me to be polemical but really I want to say that it shouldn't be too difficult for us to eat further down the food chain and maintain a healthy, nutritious diet.

Hi You could have a look at streetbank: http://www.streetbank.com/splash It can do the Freegle/Freecycle thing as well as loaning equipment and skills swap. I'd love to see it take off but, like all online forums, it needs a critical mass of active members to make it really work. Just like EDF, really. Alec

I heard Tim Lang of - Professor of food policy at City University and the one who coined the term food miles, I believe - on radio a while ago talking about the many little ethical decisions, and compromises we make, throughout each day in relation to food, the environment etc. The debate about food is more complex and interesting than the animal rights led campaigns often suggest. That's why I think it is important not to present polarised views in a combative way as so often happens on this forum. The reality for many is that our relationship with food cannot be contained in a simple label such as meat eaters or veggies. We are missing an opportunity to consider and share views on food security which is arguably one of the most important challenges we face and which will only become more pressing unless we change the global political economy of food and our own personal food preferences.

Loz is right and the same would also apply if the photo was taken in a public space including the pavement outside of your property as long as you weren't causing an obstruction. If the photo was accompanied by a caption merely stating the circumstances of the picture and you didn't accuse the subject of any wrongdoing then it could be quite useful as a safeguard and deterrent.

Hi Crisis and Salvation Army, I suppose, will be glad of donations but there's also FareShare London Unit 7 Deptford Trading Estate Blackhorse Road London SE8 5HY Tel: 020 7394 2478 / 2463 Contact: Jeredine Thomas Email: [email protected] volunteering enquiries: [email protected] http://www.fareshare.org.uk/ Also not quite what you have in mind, I suspect, but probably of interest: http://www.foodcycle.org.uk/ Best wishes Alec

A critical mass of murders, I suppose. An earlier post referred to "The Troubles" to indicate how entrenched views can shift and a form of peace can be established. We live in hope.

A fair point, I was thinking of the arms race aspect of this so the pro gun people will say that we need more people with guns to protect ourselves from the other people with guns. We will use them sensibly, for protection, while others - perhaps those with mental health problems - will take it upon themselves to use extreme violence to promote their solution to the problem - whatever it is - and we need to protect ourselves from them. They and their distorted ideology represent the problem, not the gunds themselves. A gun is only a tool - OK a tool for killing animals and people if they threaten our personal safety - but it is prefectly safe in the right hands with proper training and storage etc. But, if there was more gun control there would be fewer mass killings, surely? Maybe it's too complex a situation in the US with federal and state laws providing varying degrees of control and limitations to access to weapons that would seem to us to beyond any reasonable justification. I'm thinking of assault rifles. The alleged shooter on Friday had hundreds of rounds available to him. This was presumably because his mother was a survivalist who was preparing for the apocalyse! If you expect there to be copy cat killings in the years to come then what's your suggestions for preventing that?

The pro gun views seem to be so entrenched that it may take generations if it happens at all. particularly when they are supported by books like this: http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493660/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355687849&sr=8-1&keywords=more+guns+less+crime So, more guns mean less crime. I suppose this is a small arms version of the mutually assured destruction idea behind the nuclear arms race which has apparently prevented WW3. I did also hear on R4 someone on the NRA side of the debate saying that the response to the killings on Friday should be to arm security staff in schools! That would seem to be a dangerous escalation to us but the mentality - and the stats, apprently - claim otherwise.

Just next door to Meat N Meat in the E&C shopping centre is Cash 22, a pawnbroker. Not sure they've understood the meaning of Catch 22 - or maybe they do.

It's right to point out that we should be taking a longer view. It is quite complicated though. According to a couple of Southwark bods who came to our kids' primary in Camberwell to talk about the expansion of that school, there has been a change in demographics in London. As I understand it the churn effect is less so families are staying in London longer rather than heading out to the provinces to bring their children up. Although anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise and it may not be sustained. So, the situation regards demand for school places is perhaps less predictable than before. Aside from that, and a more complex in my view, is the relationship between parents and children's desires and aspirations for secondary school and the schools' admissions policies. Cora makes the point well and we found just that situation when our son was in year 5. He ended up getting in to Kingsdale but that may not be a viable option for children who are now in years 3, 4 and 5. I think the case of Harris Boys in East Dulwich is interesting in terms of how decisions are made about secondary school provision. As I understand it, parents lobbied for there to be a new secondary school in East East Dulwich and got a Harris Boys academy which is no use to those who wanted to be in a co-ed school. I know this can never be resolved to the satisfaction of all parties but Ofsted isn't the only way of judging whether a school is suitable for your child. I would have wanted our son to go to Deptford Green where he was offered a place. He and I both liked the ethos and the headteacher's views on learning and pastoral care but it is two bus journeys away from East Dulwich so not something we could accept at the time. So, it was complicated for us partly because where we live is outside of the Charter catchment zone otherwise Charter would have been our first choice. But, my main point is that it is difficult to accommodate the needs and interests of parents and children in this process in a meaningful and effective way, partly because the process is so political. I don't have any answers I'm afraid.

A few national level stats help put things into perspective I often find. This from the National Literacy Trust's Literacy: State of the Nation report last updated in January this year: Literacy: State of the Nation Literacy is the combination of reading, writing, speaking and listening skills we all need to fulfil our potential. These life skills are essential to the happiness, health and wealth of individuals and society. Literacy: State of the Nation provides a coherent picture of literacy in the UK today. It reveals that: ?One in six people in the UK struggle with literacy. This means their literacy is below the level expected of an eleven year old ?A quarter of young people do not recognise a link between reading and success ?Men and women with poor literacy are least likely to be in full-time employment at the age of thirty ?73% of parents and carers say their child often reads ?The number of children achieving the expected levels for reading at age eleven is 84% in 2011 ?The number of children achieving the expected levels for writing at age eleven is 75% in 2011 The Reading Agency works a lot with libraries to eupport and encourage young people and adults to read more. One of the things that stuck out for me was this statement from their website: "Parents are the most important reading role models for children and young people."

Hi edw You make a valid point but I'm not sure how much of a risk it is. I asked Professor Google about this and he pointed me in the direction of a couple of Guardian articles (other newspapers are also available) which put the risks associated with growing your own into context. The article about backyard chickens is well balanced in my view: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/nov/23/urban-chicken-keepers-doing-harm#start-of-comments and there is probably no greater authority on foraged food than Richard Mabey: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/jan/06/food.guardianspecial4 His article is more of an opinion based on his vast experience and not a journalistic piece with references to sources and opposing views but he does throw away one relevant line when advising where to forage: "Towns are often as good as the countryside, and less chemically drenched." I'd rather this thread didn't get Lounged since it is of interest to us locals and not intended to be about the wider issues around food security but I understand it may go that way. On the specifics of growing food on poor quality and possibly contaminated urban soil, I note that Southwark has at least one initiative that encourages foraging which is the planting of fruit bearing trees, labelled as such, on Surrey canal walk. I wonder if any other forumites know about the quality of London's soil.

Hi there UKj, dbk and dimples Thanks for responding to this. Great to read about what you are doing. UKj, the locally brewed beer in Herne Hill is a wonderful community effort. I hope I'll be able to join in next year. I was aware of you all through EDF and I'll be in touch via PM to see if I can include you in the story. I don't expect there's much going on at the moment but I'm glad I've started the conversation. Best wishes Alec

Hi Do you grow fruit and veg in you garden or allotment and share or barter it with friends? Do you produce food from neighbours' surplus fruit? Do you keep chickens and share surplus eggs? Do you make cider from yours and your neighbours? apples, perry from their pears or wine from their grapes? Do you gather honey from your bees or do you just grow some salad leaves on the balcony of your flat? Maybe you run a gardening club in your child's school. If so I would like to include you in my photo story on local food production. If you've seen my thread on Live below the line and my recent contributions to the long running discussion on the ethics of foie gras then you'll have gathered I have a specific interest in food. I'm not just interested in how good it is to eat but also various aspects of food production, distribution and consumption. In the last few years there has been a distinct increase in the numbers of people growing their own food, eating seasonally and buying locally produced food. So now I am attempting to tell the story of local food in our 'hood. I have started by documenting the work of Local Greens, the local veg bag people and you can see the story so far here: http://s1175.beta.photobucket.com/user/AlecLeggat/story/1025 If you?d like to get take part, PM me or give me a call. This is a labour of love that I expect to be doing over the next couple of years at least. Not just because of the seasons but also because I?m doing it part time so plenty of opportunity to get involved. Best wishes Alec 07812 150229

I see it a bit differently and I think we agreed earlier that poverty needs a complex definition to be meaningful and useful if it is to be addressed. For me, the articles we are referring to are placed and read in the context of "Austerity Britain" as we might expect newspapers like The Guardian to do. But, just as it is annoying to see a simplistic or direct link between low income and unhealthy eating habits, we are unlikely to see a correlation between increased income and healthier eating. I don't accept the speculation of the public health expert quoted by civilservant that there's a perception that the state will look after us regardless of how reckless our behaviour is. Hogarth's image of Gin Lane springs to mind: http://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Mothers-Ruin/

Hey, my first dip into crowd funding. I hope it comes off.

I thought it was a very thoughtful piece. I read it a bit differently from some others posting on this thread. Maybe it isn't so shocking to face the fact that some people's behaviour flies in the face of apparent common sense. That applies to all of us if we were to be honest and it finds a particular place in food and drink in our lives. About 30 years ago I decided to reduce the amount of salt I eat and stopped adding it automatically to my meals. Now I am acutely aware of how salty processed foods are. I'm sure that has helped keep my blood pressure low but I do find there are times when it is difficult to resist comfort foods with high proportions of sugar and saturated fat. Despite being someone who is very interested in food and nutrition I didn't know about the Eatwell Plate. So, where is the public awareness campaign that might change people's behaviour to a more "sensible and rational" use of limited resources to improve nutrition? I also think that civilservant's use of the last para in Ian Jack's article may have been a jab at our very own LL. Apologies if I have misinterpreted that.

I've already made a commitment to do as much as possible of my Christmas shopping locally this year. While it is so much easier/convenient to browse amazon there's a lot to the notion that "It's better to give than to receive." and what better way than to think creatively about what to give someone from what's available locally?

I would fully endorse Sue, too. She was our childminder for a while and is just a fantastic person - as well as being an excellent face painter. She does it for the Lyndhurst School Fairs - winter fair coming up this Saturday, 3-6. Shameless plug but if Sue is doing it again this time you'll get a chance to see her in action and maybe even book her.

Mine grew out of their three wheel micros and maxi before 6 years. AT 9 and 6 they are perfectly happy with their two wheelers. One is a cheap metal type with Olympic branding and the other is a more durable Razor with bigger wheels. Important to get them with "gel" wheels otherwise I think they can be a bit jarring and therefore tiring. One good thing is that they fold easily and I can get them on the bus without bashing passengers' ankles. I'm thinking of getting a Razor for myself so that I can keep up with them as they scoot down the hill to school.

"with no parking provision made" Yes, but, a new library!

I agree with Martin Narey that poverty isn't straightforward and I know why charities like Save campaign and raise funds on the basis of simplistic, emotive, headline grabbing messages. I don't like the approach that charities such as Save take but they do it because they are convinced that is how they will get people to sign up to their campaigns and make donations. But the Guardian coverage is about an apparent nutrition deficit and there are many other reports indicating that poor families are not feeding themselves or their children in a way that will maintain their health. It's a confusing picture too when you read reports such as this from The Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/9658914/Food-has-become-too-cheap-in-developed-world-industry-boss-says.html which say that food is too cheap and we are throwing it away in vast quantities although there is a reduction in this more recently.

Interesting observation, civilservant. In developing countries today the situation for poor people in terms of disposable income spent on food is similar to our situation at the start of the 20th century. The concern there is not just about whether or not poor people are starving in the way they have so terrifyingly in East Africa in the 1980s but that large numbers of people are under nourished, often resulting in restricted physical development and educational under achievement. An earlier post referred to Jamie Oliver's attempts at improving th nutritional value of school dinners and how that was met with sometimes vehement resistance by parents. The challenges are substantial and complex. The point I take from aricle in The Guardian is that with the squeeze on incomes and time combined with the lack of awareness of the relative ease with which we can make nutritous food without breaking the bank and the strong urge to take the line of least resistance when it comes to feeding the family, we will see increased obesity and the other problems associated with poor nutrition. I also have to declare that I am concerend about the wider implications of increased reliance on highly processed food in that it supports the globalised system of food production over locally grown and distributed seasonal foods.

I usually get the Picadilly line to Picadilly Circus and then the Bakerloo to Elephant. Then you have the choice of the 12 or the 63 bus if you live at the Barry Road side of East Dulwich. Alternatively, Picadilly line to Gloucester Road, Circle/District to Victoria and then 185 bus up Lordship Lane. Should take an hour, hour and a half. Alec