Alec John Moore

Hi Sue Sorry you aren't able to open the attachment. I don't have it on this 'puter but I'll see if I can post it in a readable format when I get home. This is my 3rd year of taking the https://www.livebelowtheline.com/uk challenge. By doing it I'm trying to raise my own consciousness of the issue and "bring to life the direct experiences of the 1.4 billion people currently living in extreme poverty" while also raising awareness more widely of the issue of food insecurity. I don't do running, I'm interested in the issue of food production and I work in international development so I feel this is an appropriate thing for me to raise awareness about. I've been told by some people that it's tokenistic and they are right in that I know I'll be able to go back to the kind of diet and lifestyle I enjoy this week after my few days of broth mix and porridge. However, it does get me thinking more about what I eat and how millions struggle to thrive or even survive on the equivalent of ?1 a day. Alec

Hi I've been doing some window shopping for my challenge next week. Attached is a shopping list comparison with last year. It's not directly comparable since this year's prices all come from Morrison's and last year's was a mixture of Morrison's, Asda and Sainsbury's. No real change to the diet so if anyone has any ideas for increasing variety. You'll see I have 3p to spare for this year! Alec

Hi numbers, You've lost me there. Alec

Hi numbers, Hmm,sense of humour is a personal thing, I suppose. Still, I'm sorry if you're insulted. I don't mean to offend you, or anyone. Perhaps I assumed too much knowledge about Live Below the Line. Have you had a look at their website? Maybe you could comment on the appropriateness or otherwise of the challenge to understand a bit more about global poverty and hunger. I hope my posts from last year will also give you an idea of why I'm taking the challenge to raise awareness about the issues and raise funds for charities working in international development. Alec

Of course, the thought had occurred but it isn't up to me. I did a quick scan of prices in the Tesco at E&C last week and was quite shocked at some of the prices, relatively speaking. However, I reckon if I shop around I'll be able to stay within my limit and still eat fairly well. I'll post last year's shopping list alongside this year's to show the differences - I expect I'll be eating pretty much the same menu, unless anyone has any suggestions. Alec

Hi I'm about to undergo my now annual culinary flagellation popularly known as Live Below the Line: https://www.livebelowtheline.com/participant?lang=en It's been interesting and helpful looking back over the posts from last year and I was wondering if anyone had any more helpful hints. I'd be particularly interested in hearing how I might add some variety to my diet while sticking to the ?1 a day for 5 days. I'll be posting a shopping list soon so maybe you could respond to that in time for when I start on Tuesday. I'll be tweeting about it @AlecLeggat If you'd like to join in there are loads of charities taking part who could benefit from your support. Alec

Hmm, I think we are at cross purposes here, PandG. I made a positive comment about The Patch on their Facebook site and I was referring to that and the importance of getting more people aware of the project, pointing them in the direction of the Kickstarter site and encouraging more people to pledge. I don't see what that has to do with cycling. ETA the bike light reference was to a project that people saw as a good idea. The communications by the project people on the progress of their idea's development and the take up by supporters was clear, enthusiastic and engaging.

Why pledge? That's personal, of course, but for me it's about being able to help an idea I like come to fruition. Patch is the third crowdfunding project I've contributed to. The first was for a bike light that projects a laser image of cyclist onto the road in front of the cyclist so that drivers of trucks and buses can see that there is a cyclist there. It was such a popular idea that it met its target twice over. Arguably that project has a broader appeal than The Patch so it's in my interests to get the word out to neighbours who might want to benefit from the project and to promote it on social media - hence my comment on their FB site.

Cycling to work on a cold morning the other week I stopped at the junction of East Dulwich Road and Oakhurst Grove to don my ear muffs. I'd taken off my gloves for this and one on them dropped on to the road on the other side of my bike. Almost before I could react, a passing cyclist had stopped and handed it back to me. Truly spontaneous and simply kind. Maybe it's a code of cycling thing but I appreciated it. Alec

Intriguing. Can you cut and paste perhaps. This international version is not available in the UK. Ta!

El Pibe, you forgot Bletchley Park.

I heard a dog trainer on R4 recently confidently stating that biological soap powder does the trick in deterring the offender erm, offending there again.

Blackbird Bakery on Grove Vale is really good for coffee and croissants/cake and it's not expensive. Nice people, friendly service and quite a cosy ambience.

I wondered if Brian Wernham's blog about the food waste report would come up. Have a look at this, sensible, take on the question from Michael White. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2013/jan/10/food-waste?CMP=twt_gu And this from the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20968076

Thanks, that's clearer. I'm not sure I agree that "resource consumption per unit of output" is forgotten outside of academic circles. I suspect that those who discuss food security in the wider society think it is less important than other considerations such as food waste. Speaking of which, any views on the IMechE report making the news today? It's contentious and challenged by many but there's a balanced and informative report from the BBC here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20968076

Not sure I'm getting your point, LM. Surely you can't simply compare the quantitative output of organic production methods with methods that use chemical pesticides etc. I think we might be agreeing somewhere here but I'm not sure where.

Surely, H, it's fairly obvious that there are many who see that bulk/yield is not the point. Or not the only point. I half heard another news report this morning saying that up to half of the food produced for human consumption globally is wasted. It's all about food security really and that is complex. I like Professor Tim Lang's thinking on this. I found a great quote from him from a BBC article entitled "A future when London can feed itself": 'Referring to an edible garden in Brighton, Tim Lang, Professor of Food Policy at London's City University, said "growing food like this is piddling and useless in terms of food production, but it's important culturally and should be done."' He goes on to cite the importance of planning in sustainability. My view is that the fundamental importance of food in our lives means that food consumers - i.e. all of us - need to be better informed about the complex issues around consumption and production. When we are there will be more potential to influence policy makers towards establishing sustainable development plans. These should include measures that address the apparent class divide when it comes to concerns about food. I think there's a lot more can be done within the education system to address this so that children grow up knowing where their breakfast cereal comes from and that there are alternatives to the processed carbohydrate confection they pour their milk over.

In any complex system there will be variations of outcome when you single out a particular aspect - levels of carbon produced as a result of consuming produce from the system. I think that's why some producers and distributors of local food try to consider as many relevant aspects as possible in their systems. For me that should, and often does, include the social/human rights/ education related aspects. Put simply, LM, we agree that local food is generally good for us and the planet but there may be exceptions. In these cases with a bit of information, consumers can make an informed choice on where and how to buy their food.

If you are saying it's complex, LM, then we would all have to agree on that. There's lots of potential for cherry picking - pun intended - your favourite bit of the system to make your point. I noted from my skim of the World Watch article that eating lower down the food chain would make a difference - something I pointed out in my earlier post. The article ends on a brief examination of transportation systems which could be made more carbon neutral but for a truly local to us example of how this can work you only need to look at the electric van used by Local Greens, the local veg bag scheme.

Interesting take on the purpose of standards in food production. Distinctions between good and bad are subjective, moral, views - in my view. Standards related to food production give producers objectives to meet in animal husbandry, use of chemicals etc and consumers reassurance that the produce meets their requirements, given an effective regulatory system. There are lots of different standards systems but they are actually about ensuring commercial viability of the ethical proposition more than moral judgements about good and bad.

H, I think we, most of us on this thread, probably agree more than we disagree. The Guardian article was interesting in a number of ways, not least of which was the indication that the ethical dilemma for some of us will increase as we confront the reality of having GM more and more a part of global food production. I also think that a practical concern about profligacy - surely a moral concern, too - has been a part of the dialogue around production/consumption and sustainable development probably since the sixties or before. To add to cs's point about the displacement of the costs of cheap food to other, producing, countries, the costs are also human in the exploitation of labour that helps keep the costs down for the massive corporations behind most of the global food production industry. See Felicity Lawrence's books for more on that.

Hi James I think it's useful to point out that the first part of the Soil Association's strap line is healthy soil. A bit obvious, perhaps, but really important given that the organic approach to food production is based on sustainability. See this link for info about the serious soil degradation problem the planet faces: http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2012/04/12/why-soil-matters/ Apart from that, organic food just tastes better, in my view, anyway. Alec

This thread has helped me think a bit more about why I don't eat meat. I've never felt the need to justify it although friends and colleagues always find it easy to label me a veggie despite the fact that I'm quite clear that I eat fish. I agree that the tendency to label us gets in the way of a helpful debate about the broader consequences of meat eating. We all need to overcome our prejudices about what are in effect lfestyle choices for most of us on this forum and recognise that if we don't begin to make the changes now, voluntarily, then we will be faced with increasingly limited choices for how we live in the future. Reading that last bit again I see it's uncharacteristic for me to be polemical but really I want to say that it shouldn't be too difficult for us to eat further down the food chain and maintain a healthy, nutritious diet.

Hi You could have a look at streetbank: http://www.streetbank.com/splash It can do the Freegle/Freecycle thing as well as loaning equipment and skills swap. I'd love to see it take off but, like all online forums, it needs a critical mass of active members to make it really work. Just like EDF, really. Alec

I heard Tim Lang of - Professor of food policy at City University and the one who coined the term food miles, I believe - on radio a while ago talking about the many little ethical decisions, and compromises we make, throughout each day in relation to food, the environment etc. The debate about food is more complex and interesting than the animal rights led campaigns often suggest. That's why I think it is important not to present polarised views in a combative way as so often happens on this forum. The reality for many is that our relationship with food cannot be contained in a simple label such as meat eaters or veggies. We are missing an opportunity to consider and share views on food security which is arguably one of the most important challenges we face and which will only become more pressing unless we change the global political economy of food and our own personal food preferences.