LondonMix

I have to disagree with Jules and strongly recommend that you use all of your preference slots. If you don't, and you can't get into the schools you've put down, you are basically telling Southwark they can send your child anywhere in the borough. This happens more than people realise and they end up with a place in an unpopular undersubscribed school miles from where they live.

12 quid an hour for 3 hours a week. Its too much really. I think I need to look around but am too lazy (hence the cleaner in the first place)

I don't know OZ, but what I find different about US class and UK class is that in the UK you can have relatively very little money and still be seen as being middle or upper class. Class here is more than your specific financial circumstances and money alone doesn't allow you to move between classes quite as fluidly as would be the case in the US. Also, in the US ordinary people careless about it. I doubt if even 10% of people in the US outside of the northeast could even name any of the ultra prestigious boarding schools that are feeders to the Ivy League in the same way Eton etc are for Oxbridge. People just don't care about the upper classes in the same way.

Agree with Aristide. I am also a foreigner (American). Middle class in the US just means, average. Here middle class is often used as a stand in for the top 10% of earners and I'd actually say almost everything the article references is very common among that group. I belong to it (in financial terms) so I know the specie intimately...

I don't know-- I barely understand what's going on right now in the economy much less what might happen and I have advanced economics training. The future is very unclear for me. JohnL Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > LondonMix Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Aristide, but without room at the top, its > > impossible to have social mobility unless some > of > > those at the top fall down a level socially, > which > > I'm not sure happened even in the 50s. > > Could new areas emerge - allowing more room at the > top ?

Some forms of cultural enrichment in London may be technically accessible but the point is to ensure that all children (regardless of the quality of their parents) get to actually have these experiences. I actually think London schools are good at this already which is one of the many reasons London state pupils outperform the rest of the country despite having a large concentration of poorer students and students with English as a second language. With the right approach and funding, it clear than none of these issues have to be a barrier to academic success. TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Aristide Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > "There's middle class and middle class" > > I'm from Australia, where there really isnt such > an identifiable class system to speak of. Sure > there's rich and poor, but its not so ingrained > 'where you come from', unless you're talking about > geography. > > I've been here over 10 years, but I'm always > amazed at how much discussion the 'class system' > can generate. So apologies if I didnt know which > type of middle class is the right type of middle > class....:)

I don't think he was trying to demonize middle class parents at all. He very clearly says all of it is basic human nature and I agree. That's why some of the issues are intractable which is the real point he's making. TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > "That room rarely opens up because those > mediocrities are too well-screened by parents who > hire private tutors, buy cultural enrichment, > teach etiquette, set expectations, stand as > personal examples of success, coach interview > technique, navigate any bureaucratic maze put > before them, set up home in nice areas, arrange > internships via friends and, just to rub in their > supremacy, make direct gifts of cash and assets. > To fail under these conditions is a kind of > achievement in itself" > > I do understand the point this paragraph is trying > to make, but I think sometimes 'middle-class > parents' are demonised a little harshly. With the > exception of a few things in the list above (e.g. > private tutors, arranged internships, direct gifts > etc..and in the case of the latter two I think are > rarer than one might think), many of these things > I would say are just 'good parenting' that is in > no way reflective of wealth or class. "teach > etiquette"? "set expectations"? "setting an > example"?....those evil middle class parents, how > dare they teach manners, set boundaries and rules, > and encourage their children to succeed......

Otta, I think that's unfair. Some of the policies were ill thought out but reducing the deficit and controlling the debt were 100% necessary. Ideologically did they want to cut public services just because they believe in smaller government-- I'm not sure there is any evidence of that. While less publicized (because they are less newsworthy / controversial), cuts were made on various tax benefits to higher rate payers (mostly via tinkering with pension allowances and removing the tax free income allowance but other benefits as well). I think increase on stamp duty and the removal of interest deductability for BTL investors shows they were willing to hurt their natural constituents at times to do what was right for the country / win votes to stay in power. They also adopted (and admitted doing so) entire policies directly from the Labor manifesto regarding living wages etc. Anyhow, they made a lot of mistakes and errors regarding public policy, particularly the NHS, council budgets etc etc. I'm not saying they were by any means perfect but I also don't see them as villains. I think the Tory party might very well lurch to the right without Osborne and Cameron.

Thanks Katy? What street do you live on if you don't mind me asking?

Ah, yes, that makes more sense.

Why? Supermarkets serve different needs to independent grocers. I think who is at threat are the existing supermarkets and convenience stores-- Sainsbury, the CO-OP and Tesco. first mate Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If there are plans for a small supermarket of some > kind by the station and a large one on Barry Road > I would think indipendents selling food will be > under a lot of pressure.

Aristide, but without room at the top, its impossible to have social mobility unless some of those at the top fall down a level socially, which I'm not sure happened even in the 50s.

SMBS is closed when most people are coming home from work I think. If shop there on the weekend but as with most of the indies as a person in full time work, using them mid week isn't usually possible. Jim1234 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > All I'm saying is if you haven't tried them, > please try local shops over M&S. Imo they are > better and often cheaper.

James, neither numerals or the plant would be the responsibility of the tenant. Both of those would be the freeholder. What are the opening hours supposed to be and are M&S regularly opening beyond them or are you talking about a single infraction? That would be quite a significant condition to break if your suggesting its an ongoing issue. Also, what do you mean the serving plan--is that a typo? Do you mean the surviving agreement? What's the nature of the breech? Thanks, LM James Barber Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Infractions are: > Not following the shop serving plan. > Not keeping to the permitted opening hours. > Not keeping to the agree drawings of the frontage > - those massive numerals, the plastic backing to > the windows effectively creating a visual wall. > Noise form plant contrary to planning conditions. > Building the top storey too high. > All bar the last condition are the responsibility > of M&S. 'Not just any kind of planning breach... > but an M&S planning breach'. > > Cllr Charlie Smith commented earlier. The 8 x > flats were proposed first. Then they thought to > add 2 x penthouse flats which would have take it > to 10 flats and potentially 35% social housing so > they re applied for the 8 flats to be work units > each with a bathroom and show room and kitchen. > Once the 2 penthouses built they'll claim no > business wanted to rent the work spaces and will > used permitted development after two years of non > occupation to convert them into flats. The > chronology is critical to get away with this abuse > of process.

Really-- I think Cameron and Boris are both a bit lazy and shortsighted. Robert Poste's Child Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > To put it another way, I thought he was lazy. > Whatever you may say about Boris I don't think > that's true of him. May I think has a strong sense > of duty, so a very different kind of mindset.

All this insight from a women who feigns to not know supermarkets sell ice... :) Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > kbabes Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Louisa Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > LM Morrisons have pulled the plug on small > > local > > > format stores and have reverted back to form > > with > > > across the board price slashing at their > > standard > > > size stores. Seems to be working too, profits > > year > > > on year are up massively for them. > > > > > > This of course begs the question who will > want > > to > > > take on the garden centre/station site? I > would > > > heard a guess at tesco express, seeing as > they > > > could puncture Sainsbury's nearby offering > for > > > convenience bits. Waitrose will probably want > a > > > large enough site to be able to provide a > store > > to > > > cover a wide enough collection of affluent > > > postcodes. A small format little Waitrose > > probably > > > wouldn't be sufficient to do that. > > > > > > Louisa. > > > > I thought Waitrose already delivered to all of > > East & West Dulwich postcodes anyway? See > them > > in my street prob 4 or 5 times per day. > > Yes they do deliver, but large supermarkets still > see the physical presence of a store as the > ultimate prize in retail marketing, hence why the > new M&S is doing so well no doubt. Not everyone > within the demographic aimed at will want > deliveries anyhow, some people still enjoy the > experience of going in store. > > Louisa.

That's fair DaveR Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I don't think we really disagree; however, it is > worth recognising that many 'top jobs' are in > fields where proper open competition is the norm, > and has been for years, which runs contrary to > popular perception. I don't think it's a > coincidence (in light of the article cited) that > journalism is not one of those fields.

I think the two faces of luck are much more present than your post suggests DaveR (at least in my experience). I agree that dim or lazy rich kids don't do well in the MOST demanding professions anymore. However, basically average rich kids with excellent training go pretty far if they also have a strong work ethic and decent social skills. The training makes them seem better than average and the training gives them valuable skills but the raw material that's there is often pretty mediocre. This has been my repeated experience working in London. I went to a highly selective secondary school in the US that was also free (top 1%). However, unlike UK grammars mine was very socially mixed with the majority of pupils being working / lower middle class. After I graduated I went to Columbia University and then Oxford for my masters. The smartest group of people I've ever been around still are my high school class mates, the majority of whom predominantly work in fine but not spectacular professional fields compared to my university classmates. Banning unpaid internships for one would be a start at tackling some of the softer issues highlighted above. Making cultural enrichment accessible to all pupils and have it organised through school so parental initiative isn't the determining factor would be another measure.

I absolutely don't buy for a second a woman as clued up as you feigning this type of ignorance. Nice try though :) Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Following a conversation with another member of > the forum on the M&S thread, I have learnt > something new tonight. Supermarkets 'sell' frozen > cubes of water, commonly known as ice. Has this > always been the case? How many of you buy ice > rather than make it at home? I am genuinely > astonished this is what has come of the world in > the 21st century. Buying ice cubes. Amazing. > > Louisa.

I agree with all of that Louisa!

I think Burro e Salvia was Speedo Pizza The Cinema was the old Church Hall (obv)

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Must be Friday LM, sense of humour failure. I was > being sarcastic. Maybe it will be a space NK? > > Louisa. I know you were being funny by winding people up. Its like my mom who used to tease my very vain grandfather he needed a cane just to watch him explode in indignation :) Maybe you will get your Space NK

Louisa you are right re James Barber. He was pushing for Waitrose as they were willing to take the Iceland store without any alternations. I think a small convenience type supermarket is planned for the development of the old Garden Centre near the station. One of the mini formats might work there and its good for footfall. I think initially it was meant to be a Morrisons but they pulled out. Also, the redevelopment on Barry road near Peckham Rye (that is causing my vet to move to the bank office on LL) is planned to have a major supermarket as well. Time will tell

Who told you that Seabag-- M&S management? I'm wondering who is suffering the most-- my guess is Sainsbury as that's where my husband would normally cycle to for top up shopping midweek. Now, we just top up at M&S on fruit and the occasional treat. The cinema told the South London press in an article that the ED branch was their most successful ever as well. There appears to be a huge pent up demand. I agree with Louisa, others, including Waitrose will be watching

Hmm, that interesting. So working class posters support Grammar schools while middle class posters don't on that thread. The author of the article above doesn't particularly weigh in on grammars as much as highlights what little difference its likely to make one way or another. I might check out that thread to hear the pro and con arguments people are making either way but the whole room at the top issue is the biggest barrier. I personally know the 'two faces of luck' and couldn't agree more with the conclusions the author reaches.