Domitianus

"A mother who appears comfortably off ie, seemingly a non-worker, having a spot of brunch, a glass of wine, shopping for knick-knacks, chattering on the phone with pals and generally appearing to have an easy life will become an immediate object of envy, targeted by those who are irritated by their seemingly easy life. So when their child bangs said spoon on table, it's the straw which breaks the camel's back. When they're still in a pub after 7pm with a pram, it's tantamount to rubbing everybody else's nose in it." Believe me Bob, there are very few in East Dulwich that I feel envious of. Some of them have assets and money I would like but it really ends there. Still, I guess it must be very comforting to assume that any time someone criticises you it is a sign of jealousy. I must remember that trick and use it myself every time I am subject to criticism. Here goes. Everyone who objects to irresponsible parenting being criticised is actually jealous of the lifestyles of people who does not have the drain on time, energy, freedom and finance that comes with having children. Hey! Whatdya know? It works! My point about the child being in the bar at an unlawful time was a response to someone who said that bars in ED tend to be child free in the evenings. My point was to illustrate simply that this is not invariably the case and that the staff and proprietors of local hostelries seem frightened to approach parents of noisy children even when the presence of said children is in breach of the licensing laws and clearly distressing to the child itself. I know of several local retailers who are driven to distraction by children being allowed to run around their shops/cafes/bars etc without supervision but are afraid to intervene in case they are subjected to some sort of economic boycott due to being perceived as unfriendly to families. Perhaps you don't allow your children to misbehave in public and that is a credit to you but, unfortunately, my own experience, comments on this thread and comments on other recent threads suggest that many parents do. That is all I am saying.

Maybe these things constantly need to be said as they are a constant characteristic of ED?

A pleasure Annie. A point I think many different people didn't seem to pick up on is my request for balance, not for exclusion of families or kids from public places but a little restraint exercised by parents. I am an uncle of a five-year old myself and oftren baby-sit so am fully aware of the need to balance entertaining a child with being mindful of others around. Best of luck. Keep us posted on your progress.

Hi Dave, Am more than happy to offer consideration in those awkward and unavoidable situations. Sometimes it can't be helped and children (praticularly babies) are unpredictable. It's all about balance but I just think at the moment the balance has gone too far in one direction in many cases. Has anyone seen the new link about a child friendly cafe opening?

In light of the other current thread on children in cafes, this is almost amusingly timely. I am all for this and hope you find somewhere suitable. A little bit of appropriate segregation might work wonders. If I end up drifting into your cafe and am deafened by kids I will take it in my stride and accept full responsibility for putting myself in that position. It might mean that from time to time I can get a seat in Cafe Nero without having to move every ten seconds to let someone with a tank/pram get past. My prayers are answered! It must be because I went into a church this morning.

James, I absolutely agree. I thought I was going insane and wondered if it was just middle-class bashing on my part but that seems to be exactly the group that is most to blame! Perhaps there is a liberal, modern-parent notion that it is unacceptable to discipline or reign-in children as this crushes the little darlings' creative spirit. The truth is, as most child care experts would agree, that children REQUIRE discipline and boundaries and that the absence of these can be a factor in the development of childhood anxiety disorders. Children can be encouraged to develop, explore, indulge in their uniqueness and creativity whilst simultaneously learning respect and self-control. And equally I agree it IS this "My children are more important than you" mentality that seems to underpin it. Fundamentally, therefore, a lack of respect for others who are put-out, frustrated and disturbed by the inconsiderate self-indulgence we have discussed.

Not easy when child at table next to you is banging metal sppon on table repeatedly and its mother is doing absolutely nothing about it!!!!

Thanks for the useful replies. I must say I am quite amazed at the way a straightforward initial question from me could provoke such defensive reactions from some and that it could actually be regarded as "brave" to ask it. I guess that just shows how intimidated those without children in ED seem to feel about having the 'audacity' to want some space just for adults or at least with well-behaved and adequately supervised children. If someone posted here asking whether there are child friendly local cafes and hostelries I doubt a hair would have been turned and all manner of useful responses would have been posted but when someone wishes to track down somewhere they can relax in a bit of peace without hordes of uncontrolled kids being around their feet - out come the crucifix, hammer and nails. Out with the allegations that someone s like the hildcatcher out of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. What rot! What an unbalanced community we live in! I would add one comment about most pubs being child-free in the evening. Within the last couple of days I was in Green & Blue and it was about 7-45pm. Place was getting quite full and there was a small group of what appeared to be ED sitting drinking wine with a baby who could scarcely have been more than a few months old. The child was crying constantly (not surprising - it was a noisy place and the child was probably exhausted) but its 'carers' seemed unperturbed. On my way out I discretely asked the staff if there was legislation about the time after which children were not permitted to be in licensed premises. They told me 7-30pm. I did not draw their attention to the crying baby (as it was unessecary, everyone was aware of it) but the G&B staff just looked rather sheepish and embarrassed. I got the impression they were simply embarrassed to intervene and ask the party to take the child home (despite it being unlawful and clearly against the child's interests to be there) because they were afraid to be seen as unfriendly to families. Anyway, I think Rosie got the balance just about right - it is not kids, but completely uncontrolled or unsupervised kids that are a nuisance to others. An example of how to achieve a good balance was evident to me this morning when I popped in for a bite to the Bread of Life cafe in the church at the top of Barry Road. Now I am not religious but I think the food tere is fairly good and the atmosphere peacful. It is completely child-friendly, more so than any other local place I know. I counted this morning seven high-chairs available for parents with children. There is a host of children's plastic drinking mugs available. There are low chairs and toys and colouring in stuff. They even run a breast-feeding cafe, children's drama, babuy-yoga etc in the same place. However, they have copies of a laminated card on display with the following words: "To all parents/carers. Please be reminded that you are responsible for your children at all times. All are welcome to enjoy the facilities, but there are ground rules. Please remember that this is a Church not a playground. You must supervise your children whilst in this space. You must know where they are at all times. Please respect other diners who wish to enjoy their meal experience in peace and quiet. Thanks for your consideration". Allelujah! Reading that was almost enough to make me discover a religious faith! Everyone there seems to respect these simple guidelines and it is a comfortable place to be. I am more than happy for kids to be there and am absolutely fine with the occasional child who will cry, make a bit of racket etc. Fundamental those 'ground rules' are a request for a bit of mutual respect for all parties and an acknowledgment that different people have different needs that can be respected. My objection is to the complete lack of respect for others that seems to typify the behaviours of those (apparently numerous) ED parents/carers who take their kids out and then allow them to run riot and indluge in utterly spoilt behaviour which impinges upon the enjoyment of other customers in the same places. Is it unreasonable to say that as a non-parent who likes the occasional bit of comparative tranquility I should not be allowed to ask for MY needs to be respected? I think not but obviously some parents are so selfish that they don't give a d**n about anyone other than themselves and their precious offspring. My objectio -

Anyone know of anywhere is ED area where there is a reasonable prospect of eating, dining, relaxing in an environment that doesn't resemble a kindergarten?

Whatever the facts may be about their performance history I am surprised to find myself at least agreeing with DM that they have gone downhill faster than a Formula One race car n a slippery slope with a huge tailwind. I think their deterioration probably coincided with the fact that they started to think that anyone gave a f**k about their opinions on anything other than music. U" are a sublime example of people who achieve success and a platform in one arena and then think they have the intelligent, knowledge and understanding to be informed commentators in completely different areas. The only thing more disturbing than that is the fact that considerable swathes of the public seem to be happy to allow them to do that and then worship at their feet like disciples at the feet of the master(s). If U2 had stuck to music their place in the musical firmament would have been assured. Unfortunately, every time I even hear Bono or U2 mentioned nowadays I get a sense of irritation.

*Bob* Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Is your gaff still on the way up, then, Dom? I rent, I don't own and whatever arguements there may be in favour of owning instead of renting there is absolutely no way I would buy property in London at the moment.

I have been just once and it was pleasant and friendly. A real little oasis of rustic calm in the badlands of Peckham. WHen you bear in mind the nearest alternatives are KFC, Mcdonalds, BK or chewing on a raw pig trotter bought from one of the nearby 'on-street' butchers, it is a godsend.

JoeChuff Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > it is, rather, isn't it? those mags are basically > just house pornography! > > i have a friend who believes that all this > obsession with house prices is a real cancer of > the British psyche... people trying to get rich > without actually having to work for it... a bit > extreme maybe but he's got a point. > > Ted Max - are you looking for an equity partner? > ;) I completely agree. If I never hear another person waffling on about property prices and the housing ladder I will be a happy man. There seems to be this popular misconception that house prices go one way - up, and we never hear the end of people who have bought a house, had it re-valued a month later and find out that they have made x thousands of pounds. As we have seen recently, however, there are significant signs of instability in the housing markets (America, Spain and Ireland are taking a kicking), there has been a drop last month in house prices in London, there is the sub-prime fiasco and a distinct possibility of a further increase in interest rates. I think some of these smug characters who mistake genius for a bull market may end up with an awful lot of egg on their faces!

giggirl Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I get lots of charity bags but through my door for > me to fill and leave outside on a given collection > date. I don't fill them any more because on so > many occasions the collection day came and went > and the full bags were left on my doorstep. Call > me old fashioned but I just don't like plastic > bags on my doorstep. I didn't want to deprive the > charities of the bag itself so I took to leaving > the unused bag on my window ledge where it could > be seen so that the charity collectors could > collect the empty bags and re-use them. Except > that they never ever took away the empty bags. > Now I use them as bin liners. Am I going straight > to hell? Only if someone lends you a handcart!

But that was true!

I believe Charlie Chaplin was actually born OF an elephant!

I sent three Czech porn-stars to that hotel after they arrived late at Gatwick one night and I couldn't put them up. I think they found it satisfactory.

The Dulwich Therapy Rooms (above Healthmatters on Lordship Lane) do pregnancy yoga I believe and a whole range of other pregnancy, maternity, pre and post-natal therapies as well. I have heard good things about the place and it might be worth checking out.

I am not entirely sure but I get the impression that Fusion operate almost with a public sector mentality, ie. protected, monopolistic, 'divine right to succeed' type of thinking which is not exactly conducive to taking a competitive position and assessing the rivals. Just the impression I get from having visited a couple of their places.

She struck me as being rather nasty and with an attitude problem, rather than troubled or unstable so think she deserved a talking to. In case I was wrong I did make my approach to her quite courteously. Saw her again today walking up LL wearing a different set of quite smart looking clothes so it confirmed my suspicions that she is not exactly needy - she averted her gaze when she saw me which I can only attribute to a guilty conscioence or the hideous and disfiguring massive supurating boil on the tip of my nose. Hard to know which it was.

Because Brockwell have a steam room they have to spend extra electricity converting the water into steam, whereas Jags just leave it all lying around in a big pool. Hence you are paying an extra ?20 for Brockwell's leccie bill. Or something like that...........

I have a feeling this subject may have been raised here before but here goes. This afternoon I was walking past St Christopher's Hospice Shop on LL. As is often the case there were a couple of bags of clothes left outside awaiting salvage by the shop staff. As I passed by a middle aged woman (slim, wearing shorts, shoulder length brown hair and bad skin and teeth, just in case she is reading this) browsed through one of the bags, picked up a pair of shorts and walked off with them. Now I am no lawyer but it seems to me that the stuff left outside the shop has been given to St Christopher's as a gift by the donor and is, therefore, St Christopher's property. Thus, removing it without permission is theft. I politely approached this lady using the words "Excuse me, I don't mean to be rude but...." and pointed out that the piece of clothing she had taken actually belonged to the shop and did she not consider her taking it as tantamount to theft? She became very unpleasant (obviously a defensive reaction to being confronted by her own dishonesty) and accused me of being very rude and said that "St Christophers get the money off me" (what she meant by that I don't know - maybe she is a regular customer and thinks they overcharge!). I pointed out that I had not been at all rude but thought it appropriate to point out that her actions were actually removing revenues from St Christophers and that my comments had been expressed in an extremely polite manner. She continued to tell me how rude I was and that it was none of my business. I replied by asking whether I should consider it "none of my business" if I saw someone breaking into a car - should I just pass by and say nothing? She said that she was not breaking into St Christophers - thereby missing my analogy entirely. Suffice it to say we had an exchange of words and she then strode off triumphantly clutching her stolen goods. This is the sort of behaviour one expects (and can almost condone) from the homeless and destitute but seems rather shoddy from an apparently housed and moderately affluent citizen. Anyone have any thoughts on this matter. Does the fact that the clothes have been left outside the shop and not yet priced and sorted make this any different from walking INTO the shop and pinching something?

My imagination tells me that Mr Percy Snodgrass, having had the odd glass, sets out to clean up the streets with his trusty Liston Knife.

Well, it has been alleged by reputable sources that he would often buy it and drink it on the quiet.

I have heard it said that he would often have the odd glass, especially when he thought that nobody could see. Has anyone reason to dispute or confirm these allegations?