TheCat

Blimey....that's a shame for the owners. 18 months of prep for 6 months of trading...

As an aside, I thi nk the juxtaposition highlighted in sephiroths post is worth flagging. It highlights the difference in outlook between many leavers and remainers. The longer term 'concept' was of importance to many leavers (myself included), but the shorter term implementation risks and detail were more important to many remainers And it's this incongruous way of looking at it that maybe promotes so much division....apples and oranges.....

Ha...as soon as I posted that I thought that bit might be the focus.... Sephiroths comments are very fair. For what it's worth....the short comment to make is that the referendum vote was for the next 50 odd years, and if you were influenced by people like garage, Johnson, rees-mogg etc....then I feel this is conflating the politicians of the moment with a much more structural, longer term decision. I appreciate the counter argument is that these are the people that will negotiate our exit. And to be fair...that is unfortunate.....

I posted this in another thread...but this seems to be where it's being discussed.... For context - I didn't vote conservative recently, despite my leaver credentials on this forum. For me the question of government or leave are totally separate. But, in anycase, after the election I was prepared to give Boris the benefit of the doubt, despite his patchy record with the truth etc. But I must say this forcing out of javid does concern me. They wanted him to change his advisors, so really they wanted to keep him as a figurehead to show stability, but number 10 would actually make the decisions in the chancellory... Hmmmm.......

For context - I didn't vote conservative recently, despite my leaver credentials on this forum. For me the question of government or leave are totally separate. But, in anycase, after the election I was prepared to give Boris the benefit of the doubt, despite his patchy record with the truth etc. But I must say this forcing out of javid does concern me. They wanted him to change his advisors, so really they wanted to keep him as a figurehead to show stability, but number 10 would actually make the decisions in the chancellory... Hmmmm.......

JohnL Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > This super spreader got well real fast. > > As with all viruses if you're old, young, ill or > immune compromised you find it much more difficult > - so we owe it to them to be careful. Agreed. I'd also prefer if the media gave a little more information on what the range of severity of symptoms are, and speed of recovery that has been seen in the 95 percent of those who don't die after contracting it.... Some decent stats here for those interested.... https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/

ianr Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > a steep decline in the level of investors > knowledge > > on markets (both into and retail investors). > > I take it the "into" is a typo or machine guess, > but haven't yet lit on what it should be. My apols....Insto (I.e. institutional investor)

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > stepdown Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Sajid Javid has set out his "vision" for how > the > > financial services will be impacted: > > > https://www.cityam.com/ill-give-the-city-the-flexi > > > bility-it-needs-to-thrive-outside-the-eu/ > > > > Generally pretty woolly cakeism, but looks like > > they'll start off on the basis of equivalence > with > > a view to diverge over time: > > "As we leave the EU with the same rules, > achieving > > equivalence on day one should not be > complicated. > > Of course, each side will only grant > equivalence > > if it believes the other?s regulations are > > compatible. But compatible does not mean > > identical, and both the UK and the EU have at > > different times recognised the importance of > > focusing on regulatory outcomes." > > not exacting taking back control and writing our > own rules is it Does this not provide scope for the ability to offer different services for different markets? Ie. Follow all the same rules of equivalence for products sold into the EU. But for domestic financial products, or to third countries such as the US, there can be different regulations. I'm not sure how familiar people on here are with the MiFID 2 directives (specifically research unbundling) which came into effect 2 years ago, and by common consensus have achieved very little of the 'transparency' they were meant to achieve, and have actually been a killer to competetive markets in equity broking, and have contributed to a steep decline in the level of investors knowledge on markets (both into and retail investors). There have also been around 75000 job losses in finance in europe over the past 2 years, with MiFID 2 regs being seen as a large driver of that. So....I see brexit as an opportunity for the city to row back much of the unbundling of research, and improve the research provision to domestic asset managers and retail investors, while still ensuring that any passport research services into Europe remain unbundled. Long story short....I don't see any major reason we can't have different regs where appropriate for financial services. It's not like you're manufacturing a totally different car....its a service which lends itself to being more flexible....

You see how boring this has become without me being an asshole?:) You want me on that wall...you need me on that wall....

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > > > The main point I was making was about the > seeming > > lack of preparedness we currently observe.... > > > > As an aside, you?re much more pleasant to deal > with today. That?s good (and hopefully doesn?t > sound too patronising) Haha. Let's just say I've hit the reset button, I would agree with your first statement about the lack of specificity over brexit. I've partially admitted as much in my long (cathartic?) diatribe yesterday. I've also always said that I expected and was prepared to wear short term pain (let's call short term the next 3-5 years). For the longer term benefits as I saw them. Others weren't. That's fine. But in anycase, now we get down to brass tax, and we do need to nut out the specifics. And if may return the compliment, I have actually enjoyed today's discussion, and may have even learnt something!

Allow me to clarify. I'm not trying to blame remainers or remainer MP's. They did exactly what they should have done at the time based on their convictions. They were trying for an altogether different outcome, which did not come off. But there is clearly an opportunity cost to those efforts unfort, so I'm just observing that with the benefit of hindsight, if we all knew we'd end up in this position anyway, then both sides could have focussed on preparing for the next phase, rather than squabling, and the civil service would have perhaps had a better handle on negotiations. In anycase, its a moot point/what if/hypothetical that doesn't matter.... The main point I was making was about the seeming lack of preparedness we currently observe....

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > but surely if remain supporting politicians had > just acquiesed (under > > protest) we'd be in a much better position now > to > > approach trade negotiations. > > > > > I'm not sure that i can see any logic in that Surely, any preparations for negotiations were either torn up when new leadership took over (which was obviously forced by the splits in parliament on the issue and the pressure the government was under) or were continually put off while the uncertainty over the manner in which parliament would exit (or possibly not exit) was ongoing? For better or worse this is the first time since the 2017 election when the government has clear road to direct the civil service in accordance with its desires (whether we agree with those desires is another matter of course)...

stepdown Wrote: -------------------------------------------------------The EU > published draft negotiation guidelines this week > but there hasn't yet been any similar detail from > the UK government, details here: > https://davidallengreen.com/2020/02/a-tale-of-two- > texts-what-the-united-kingdom-should-have-publishe > d-yesterday-but-did-not/ A very fair article. If being optimistic, one could hope that Boris is 'voguing it out' while behind the scenes the civil service is playing catch-up. The parliamentary shenanigans -including 3 different prime ministers- of the past 3-4 years have surely played a large part in not allowing the civil service to have a cogent and detailed plan or approach to these negotiations. This isn't meant as a dig at remainers, but surely if remain supporting politicians had just acquiesed (under protest) we'd be in a much better position now to approach trade negotiations. As it stands....we don't appear very well prepared at all. On the bright side we have a PM well versed in 'faking it until he Makes it'....

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Blah Blah Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > We won't get everything negotiated by the end of > the year. > > Pretty much everyone who understands trade > deals > > knows that. So we probably will end up with a > > loose framework where some things are agreed, > > while negotiations continue. The question is, > does > > that mean an extension of the transition, > because > > until everything is agreed, we technically are > in > > transition. > > I think that extending transition should happen > and if it doesn't we'll be doing a rushed job at > best and doing a no deal at worst Yes, I think it will need to be extended also for similar reasons. But I think Boris is making the right noises for now about not extending it. Keep the pressure on for most of the year, and then as Blah Blah says...see where we are at come end of 3Q of the year....

Okay Look ? Sophiroth, Pk, Stepdown et al?.. ? Im going to ?open the robe? here so to speak, so pls allow me a self-indulgent post about myself☺?..and Ill try to be as honest , non-petulant (that?s a fair accusation from Blah Blah!), and conciliatory as possible? ? I think that each of your responses to my longer post yesterday are all reasonable and deserve a response/proper engagement from me. As I?ve admitted to a number of times, I have shied away from actually focussing on the issues too much, as I have clearly felt that the tone of these threads was not conducive to an open discussion. ?I have, in the past, engaged extensively on the EDF, and previously posted reams about why I voted the way I did; and have been burned somewhat by what I perceived as dogmatic, snide, aggressive, mis-representing responses ? so hence my more recent posts which have focussed on ?decorum and respect? moreso than anything else. ? As a brief summary for context - ?I was totally neutral prior to the vote. I did a lot of my own research (including reading 2 of the detailed economic reports ? IMF and PwC ? from cover to cover). It was a difficult decision with many moving parts, and I came down on the side of Leave. In no way do I believe that Brexit is the panacea for all that ails us, and in no way do I think trade deals will be ?easy?, or quick to establish. ?But it?s the decision I made with as much information as I was practically able to digest at the time (and my decision had nothing to do with what was written on the side of some bus). So I do take some issue when I see the most common comments from remain voters assuming why leavers voted to leave ?(let?s be honest, they?re usually less than complimentary!), as they are usually WAY off base as to why I did. Yes, Im aware that there were some unsavoury types who also voted to leave, that doesn?t mean I endorse the reasons they voted to Leave ? I had my own reasons and frankly, I don?t care what other people?s were. ? So, to one of sephiroth?s points - yes I do fancy myself ? ?I fancy myself as something of an advocate for objectivity and balance. Without going into details ? my career is based on dispassionate assessment of various factors and forming a conclusion. And in my experience, for complex issues such as this I think it is extremely rare (nigh on impossible) that one option is ALL GOOD and one option is ALL BAD.? SO again, I do get frustrated when I see remain voters often refusing to concede that there is ANYTHING potentially positive about Brexit. It?s just seems to me to be willful obstinance. ? So, Sephirtoh, ?of course I worry about the implementation of Brexit. It comes with significant risk, and I?ve never denied that. ?Anyone who doesnt worry at least a little are probably ignorant or foolish (and some leavers on the EDF don?t help themselves with some of their comments I?ll admit!) ?Yes, I do worry about the government we have now and the way things will pan out (lets remember that at the time of the vote Cameron and Osbourne were in power ? and no matter what you thought of their politics they were not incompetent, and it was this administration I expected (perhaps naively) to lead the subsequent process). ? I?ve been asked on this forum so many times exactly what my ?picture? of Brexit looked like when I voted. The answer is that I didn?t have one ? I voted to leave on various principles with as much information on process/sturtcure as I felt was prudent at the time (and trusted that a reasonable government would be able to decide the best roadmap for implementation of that broad decision). You may disagree with that approach, that?s fine, I can see why Remaining was also a very attractive option for wholly different reasons. ? So we can talk about EU trade talk options now if you like?.and I say with genuine conviction, let?s disagree, I?ve absolutely no problem with disagreement. But not every post has to refute or discredit absolutely everything being responding to. I acknowledge that the idea if a ?frictionless? transition is an absolute pipedream, so there?s no need to convince me of that, im personally interested in what the potential positive and negative risks of various options may be.... ? As a starting point?..does the UK have an opportunity to accelerate development of its tech sector dependent on the rules the trade talks come up with? https://capx.co/the-unseen-benefits-of-leaving-the-european-union/

KidKruger Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Anyone got any views on the EU trade talks? > Sure let me just Google some so I can appear informed....

Okay....sure....here's a fact based opinion which I'm sure will excite a few of you...... I have previously proposed that most people vote on principle in most elections and/or referendums. And that this one was no different. The number one reason (based on the Ashcroft poll...So can I call that a fact?) that people voted to leave was on the PRINCIPLE of sovreignty. They felt that the laws that govern this country should be made in this country. Not influenced by the needs and desires of 27 other countries. To believe in that principle, one did not require a detailed knowledge of how the EU Forms legislation. Similarly it didn't require them to reel off a list of specific legislation they disapprove of. The number one reason that people voted to remain was because of 'the economy'. And, as I've said before, very few of those remain voters had a detailed knowledge of economics, trade policy or regulation. It didn't require them to reel off a list of businesses who were awarded EU grants. But since the referendum the great majority of remainers have been so angry that they've been furiously googling and suddenly every remainer is a newfound 'expert' in the minutiae of these issues, as it gives them self-righteous comfort to be able to say 'well leavers don't know any of this, so therefore were clearly wrong'. It is my OPINION that most of you on here citing all this detail which you've recently googled about regulatory and legislative process, knew absolutely F. All about much of this prior to the referendum. As did most remainers, meaning most remainers voted just as much on principle as many of the leavers you so deride - it just happened to be a different principle. So get off your high horse's and remember that the majority of remainers were just as clueless as most leavers at the time of the vote, and voted on principle...not on a superior knowledge of trade regulation, economics, legislative process or anything else.... I look forward to a stream of balanced and thoughtful replies.... PS: I did read the blog, and acknowledge that SOME of those in the list are clearly bullsh1t, but equally SOME of the retorts are fairly unconvincing. But, in anycase, ince I never knew about that list of relocated businesses in the first place, I can't say it changes my views a great deal.

stepdown Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > > I'm exasperated because you are "not willing to > properly enter the discussion" and continue to > resort to making arguments in bad faith. Ha. Says the person who was in such a rush to aggressively take down my fairly innocuous (vacuous even?) comments after I re-entered the thread that they either didn't notice that there were circa 2.5 hours between my posts to read the referenced links; or did notice and still wanted to attack me anyway. Okay. This has been fun. But I might stepdown now...

stepdown Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > And you u wonder why I'm not willing to > properly > > enter the discussion? I'm not interested in > people > > like you twisting and deliberately > misrepresenting > > nearly every word of something you disagree > with. > > I did not twist your words, I quoted you verbatim. > There is nothing in there to disagree with, it's > vacuous. Misrepresentation and verbatim quotes are not mutually exclusive as I'm sure you well know. If my comments are so vacuous, then why do they clearly upset you so much? (your gratuitous use of the exclamation mark is very expressive by the way)

stepdown Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Im not questioning the 'fact checking' of the > > website being referenced...as to be honest I > > haven't yet clicked on the link. > > Good to see you won't be commenting on something > you can't be bothered to read, and that you're at > least being honest about it. > > > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > But suffice to say that I can imagine the > derision > > and bile that would spew forth on these pages > if > > any Leavers posted a 'factcheck' from a site > > called ihatetheEU.com...... > > Oh, no, that restraint didn't last long! Your > usual tactic of attacking a "lack of decorum and > respect" is now being used on imaginary "derision > and bile"! Innovative! > > > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > 'facts' (or 'incomplete facts as the case may > be > > on this occasion). > > It gets better! You start questioning the fact > checking of the site immediately after posting > that you won't be questioning the fact checking of > the website you haven't even clicked on! Classic! The irony of you mocking my calls for respect after such a petty, niggling and aggressive post such as this is quite amusing. And you u wonder why I'm not willing to properly enter the discussion? I'm not interested in people like you twisting and deliberately misrepresenting nearly every word of something you disagree with. PS: between my first post c7:30pm and my next after 10pm...even someone as stupid as me had the time to click on the link and read it....but you knew that and just thought you'd have a pop anyway right?

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Im not questioning the 'fact checking' of the > > website being referenced...as to be honest I > > haven't yet clicked on the link. > > > > But suffice to say that I can imagine the > derision > > and bile that would spew forth on these pages > if > > any Leavers posted a 'factcheck' from a site > > called ihatetheEU.com...... > > So you?re not interesting in the facts > > But you think that it?s useful to comment in > sensationalist terms on what people haven?t said > about something that hasn?t happened. > > What?s the point? Haven?t you any opinions on EU > trade? Calm down dear...it was a wry observation about the name of a website, not an attack on truth or 'facts' (or 'incomplete facts as the case may be on this occasion). So now you want my opinions??....please make up your mind as to whether you want opinions or facts...

Im not questioning the 'fact checking' of the website being referenced...as to be honest I haven't yet clicked on the link. But suffice to say that I can imagine the derision and bile that would spew forth on these pages if any Leavers posted a 'factcheck' from a site called ihatetheEU.com......

Stepdown - Thankyou for irrefutablly (and unfortunately very predictably) proving my entire point..... Best of luck to you.

FreyaMikaelson Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Grove boy Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > See, you're still frothing, So much harm? you > > sound like you've been brainwashed. > > > That's because they are brainwashed. > > If they seriously wanted to hear what leavers have > to say; what they think and want, they would have > turned up to Q&A events, held by > leavers/conservatives. Turning Point UK for > example, anyone? Didn't think so. Would have loved > to see those smug expressions wiped off of your > faces in a real debate... y'know, instead of > attacking DulwichFox? I mean... low blow. > > Cat, your posts have been a breath of fresh air on > this toxic thread. EDF needs more of you... less > of this filtdow Very kind. Thanks. I've been berated on this thread for not engaging on points around the actual debate we should be having. To be fair...in more recent times, that's true. I have purposefully avoided actually debating the issues, preferring to focus on highlighting the lack of decorum and respect by various posters. What's the point in saying what one thinks in good faith when some poster are just hovering over their keyboards salivating at the idea of tearing apart what is said rather than taking a balanced view (case in point - the disgraceful pedantic responses to Dulwich Fox on this thread, basically accusing him of being a racist despite him clearly saying he deplores racism and supports attempts to stamp it out - but then trying to twist his words to make him look silly). I'm sure this will prompt a 'Go on then, explain it to me' type response. But the truth is that these people don't WANT to have a differing perspective explained to them. They just want to tear people down for going against their narrative. Hence my comment that 'name me ONE good thing about brexit' is actually a negative comment which exposes the posters bias - IF you TRULY can't name just ONE potentially positive outcome about such a massive, complicated issue. Then the truth is that you just don't WANT to know. There are numerous articles and studies on line (not all written by frothing brexiteers) which lay out reasonable potential advantages.But it's much easier to just call us all stupid and ill-informed than actually open your mind a little. On the various brexit threads on this forum over the past 3 years I have set out (in detail) why I voted Leave, I have cited differing priroties and differing levels of risk tolerance for short term economic pain for longer term benefits as I see them (Go on then...go and check my post history). But I see very little point in continuing to do so on this forum until the dominant tone moves away from a pedantic need to tear down anyone who might dare to think that Leaving the EU is something that could work (Note, I didn't say that it 100 percent will be a land of milk, honey and unicorns - in fact it's not really leavers that say this sort of thing, it's mostly the usual suspects who hate the idea of leaving that project such ideas on to others, to build their strawmen). Even the Guardian yesterday published 2 op ed articles (one by its senior economics editor) outlining the possible positive aspects of how economic reform could take place in Britain post-brexit. But the most vocal posters on here just don't want to hear it. And to be fair to them, a couple have basically said as much, suggesting that they have no wish to agree to disagree and no desire to 'be reasonable'. Fair enough, but if that's the case then I'll continue to fight that battle (I.e. A desire for reasonablness) before even attempting to enagage on the actual issues on this forum. 3, 2, 1.....cue responsive bile mocking how 'utterly clueless' (or some variation of that) my comments are.......

stepdown Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I will happily discuss why I think membership of > the EU is the best option going forward. So you'll happily discuss how you think brexit is a bad idea? Not really conductive is it? How is advocating EU membership in anyway useful? It's not an option at this stage. And invariably every discussion on this forum gets dragged down into the leave versus remain question. Which is moot. Failing > that, staying in the single market would be my > preference, but it is unlikely to satisfy leave > voters now that the Overton window has shifted so > far towards a hard Brexit. Fair enough. That's actually an worthwhile discussion. > > On the other hand, there is still no plan years > after the vote. It's because there are a whole > host of competing incentives for all the different factions that made up the leave vote. By contrast the remain "solutions" are incredibly clear. Do you think the lack of a plan 4 years later has anything to do with remain leaning MP's trying every means possible to disrupt brexit?