TheCat

Jenny1 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > OK. I see you did reference Keano77's dismissive > comments about Yellow Hammer. But Keano77 had just > above reinforced his argument with a link to the > Singapore Model article. Does this mean that you > put little store by the Yellow Hammer warnings, > and agree with Keano77 on that, but disagree with > his approval of the Singapore Model of Brexit? If > so, fair enough, but you didn't make that clear. > If you disapprove of the Singapore Model, what are > your reasons for doing so, and what would your > alternative model be? Seriously? You've got some balls. You admit you blatantly misrepresented my comments. Don't even bother to apologise. And then imply that it's my fault because I didn't make 'that clear'. All my comment says is that forecasts are not facts. My opinion on the yellowhammer papers has not in anyway been referenced. And I am not inclined to do so given all you seem to want to do is project what you think my views are. Try listening a little more, and thinking you know a little less. And that way you might end up having an actual useful debate, rather than the 'fever dream' which you think it is.

Jenny1 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I don't need to look back very far TheCat. You > referred approvingly above to what you regarded as > the positive 'facts' referenced by Keano77 in the > article he posted about the benefits of a > 'Singapore Model'. More lies. I referenced Keano's comment stating that the operation yellowhammer paper was not 'fact'. It was a set of assumptions. Nothing to do with Singapore. That's the second time now you've totally made something up based on your own prejudice. Third time lucky I guess......

Wow Jenny...it must be nice to live in your total fantasy land, where you can just completely fabricate what you believe other people's views to be. I have never once referenced anything to do with a 'Singapore model', never once spoken about this low tax, low regulation environment you refer to. Not even mentioned it, let alone 'supported' it as you seem to have dreamt up. Go and review my posts above and I think you may feel a bit of a prat for your total lies. Looks like the people you disagree with aren't the only liars huh?

keano77 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Sephiroth Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Just last week on this very thread Lou was > > accusing me and others of doom mongering and we > > weren?t basing anything on facts. And yet here > we > > are > > How are these facts? They are planning assumptions > - short term possible downsides. Come one Keano77, you know the rules mate..."facts" are anything bad that might happen post-brexit; "lies" are anything good that might happen.....

You could put in a Garden Bridge.....

Japan will be a great host nation.....really sad I can't make it over.... https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/all-blacks-haka-world-cup-16895303.amp

You can find it at M and S, right next to the Bespoke Tinned Tuna....

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > As for lou?s WTO fantasies, what can you even say? > She has the f@@@ing GALL to say we are making > stuff up and she comes out with this nonsense. > Where does she get such ideas? Where? Your rage is really becoming comical/farcical. Please carry on. I'll just say this. Louisa said that many statements being made were not 'based in fact'. A forecast or prediction is NOT, repeat NOT, fact.

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > prepared to put people through this for decades? > > People will die. Be it because of resumption of > the troubles. Or food/medicine shortages > > And you won?t even be embarrassed? You should be > prosecuted Hahaha. You really make me laugh. No, people dieing doesn't make me laugh. Statements like the above really do though. I don't know how you can even attempt to claim balanced judgement with comments like this one. Best of luck to you though.

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Cat. I?m expressing more than my views - they are > a combination of government forecasts, most > economists and other countries and anyone with a > reasonably intelligent view of how this would pan > out > > But of course I could be wrong. And how > embarrassed will I be then? I?ll be mortified but > relieved. > > Ah but if you are wrong? Well then, that?s a > different story isn?t it? Your embarrassment won?t > be enough to account for the problems we face I won't be embarrassed at all. I've stated clearly on this forum and also many others, that the decision was a very difficult one, I did my own independent research, and on balance I came down on the side of Leave. But was eyes wide open that this came with risks attached. My reasons were largely long term, so we won't really know if I'm wrong for a good 15-20 years. I said that the transition will likely send us into recession in the short-term, and it was a cost I was prepared to wear for the benefits longer term as I saw them (please don't ask me to repeat what they are, you can go through my posting history on this thread if you are really interested).so I won't be embarrassed, but will be disappointed of course. But in anycase, given this looks like happening regardless of your views, let's hope we're all fine, and you are embarrassed:)

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I love Lou telling everyone to calm down having > admitted she hadnt the first f@@@ing clue what she > was on about in the referendum. > > Loads of leave voters were concerned about deals > Lou. They were repeatedly reassured by leave > leaders like Hannan telling them ?absolutely no > one is talking about leaving the single market? > and they would have voted accordingly > > Many of them have changed their minds and it?s > democratic to allow them to express that. Maybe > some remainers would now vote leave - but anyone > pretending that THIS is what 51.x percent of the > population voted for is full of shit > > The governments own internal forecasts are not > simply a ?rocky road?. They spell chaos for the > country > > And as jenny and others have said, all it does is > leave you back needing to negotiate a deal. And > then what? Oh then you will blame others again - > never ever accepting this is all on you for voting > leave and not seeking ratificbree It must be great knowing the future with such unerring certainty as you do. You don't like brexit. You reckon it's bad. Real bad. Fine - that's a more than reasonable position to take. But your unerring belief in every word you type (ranging from knowing the entire thought process of leave voters, to deadly accurate predictions for the economy), with no concession or quarter given to any opposing view smacks of blinkered dogma, rather the considered, balanced judgement.

peckman Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I'm getting to the point of just thinking let's > the brexit people have there way .. completely > @#$%& it up and ride it out for 5 years or so .. > most the Brexit voters will be dead by then or see > there towns decimated . I feel sorry for the kids > .. this and the environment .. we have let them > down Geez some of you guys rile each other up in your little echo chamber in here don't you. I know you disagree with brexit, I respect that, but get a grip. If the nation survived the global financial crisis when the entire financial system was on the brink of collapse - we will manage not being in the European Union. I'm not saying it will be milk and honey, it will be a very tough road, the transition was and still is always the biggest short term risk and concern. But the way that some of you on here talk you'd think the 5 horsemen of the apocalypse are on their way. It's like you all compete to express how disastrous you think brexit will be. Get some perspective.

CONGRATULATIONS Dulwich....you've finally arrived as one of the nation's top, elite, champagne sipping, middle-class enclaves...apparently...;) https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/the-rage-against-boris/

"@thecat why not say what these other more effective ways are, or point us at organisations who are doing them then?" That's exactly what I did in my first post. Perhaps you're not particularly familiar with how extremely effective it is and will continue to be, if you don't have a background in funds management, then that's understandable. I'm not talking about 'banking' which you referenced, I'm talking about the way everyone's pension is invested. I can assure you that at the pointy end of climate change advcocacy (e.g.. the UN Convention framework for climate change) this is recognised as the most influential driver of positive change. "Is it just about getting pensions and investment funds to change priorities (really, that's it??)" While that is far and away the most effective thing you can do, no it's about more than that, I'm just not a fan of direct action, and of 'awareness' campaigns...do you really think there are people unaware of climate change?? I'd prefer to see you have some more targeted and tangible messing ...preferentially aimed at individuals and pointing out how they must change their lifestyles, not a govt and companies. You might actually achieve something if your 'target' was Joe public rather than 'the man'. You're obviously a very committed individual who has adjusted your lifestyle to try and combat climate change. But I get horrendously frustrated at many people I know, who saunter along to these types of demonstrations, while also doing b+gger all to change their lifestyles; and then proceed to lecture everyone else about how they are "creating positive Change' just because they chose to carry a placard for a few hours....

katanita Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > @uncleglen - I've been doing everything I can to > reduce my carbon footprint over the last ten years > or more. Weirdly, me taking personal > responsibility for my carbon footprint doesn't > seem to have solved this quite massive global > issue > > Which brings me to @thecat. Correct! It is a > global problem and the UK's part in causing it is > relatively minor (but rather disproportionate all > the same). Thank goodness then that XR is a global > movement now, but one which has its origins in the > UK, demonstrating nicely the way in which > something started in one country can indeed have > cascading effects throughout the world. Note that > XR doesn't claim to be able to solve climate > change. Rather, it has very specific demands > which, if met, should bring about the awareness, > clear objectives and democratic framework for real > change to happen. For what precisely that change > should be, it's over to the People's Assemblies > and the work of experts such as those at Project > Drawdown. > > The first goal is to get governments (and media) > to tell the truth and I really don't see how you > could argue that XR haven't made inroads here. > Climate change is finally on the news and > political agenda in a much bigger way than it has > been in the past and Parliament did declare a > climate emergency (just a start, but a start all > the same). The second is to Act Now in agreeing to > reduce carbon emissions to net zero by 2025 and > stop destroying biodiversity. Got a long way to go > here, but if one government can be persuaded to > start acting on this basis, it should provide a > useful model and potentially influence others to > do the same. The third is to create Citizens > Assemblies on climate change. This has begun to > happen, isn't that good? > https://news.camden.gov.uk/camden-citizens-assembl > y-to-take-on-climate-crisis-challenge/. > > I fail to see how we can solve a global problem > WITHOUT starting at home. Of course other > countries are bigger polluters etc, but I have > pretty much zero opportunity for influence in > China or India, unless you have some suggestions > for how to do this?? In the absence of a better > answer, we will continue with the direct action > and community outreach such as that happening this > weekend. Loads of people signed up to be part of > the movement at Blackheath after finding out more, > which is great. > > FWIW, I have indeed moved my banking to the most > ethical and environmentally friendly options I > could find. Have also had discussions about this > within XR, so your assumption is off-base. But as > we know, personal choices are not enough, and it > is implausible to expect most people to have the > time, energy and resources to audit all of their > life choices to make sure that they are doing the > right thing (which is often very unclear anyway). > Suggesting that people who don't do this just > don't REALLY care is OTT and not in line with the > XR no-blame and shame philosophy that recognises > how hard this is, and the fact that the problem > really needs to be tackled at a much higher level > for anything to happen, as you yourself said. > > XR are not perfect by any means, but thank > goodness someone is finally doing something. I > highly recommend reading This is Not a Drill, the > XR "handbook" which is really a collection of > essays about where we are, and where we could be, > and the latter is actually a really inspiring and > positive vision of a better future. In fact, I'll > send a copy to the first 4 people who PM me here, > let me know if you want one. There's a number of things within this comment I could take issue with, but in the interest of everyone's time, let's just agree to disagree then. I remain unconvinced your direct action does much more than make you and other XR demonstraters feel warm and fuzzy about 'making a difference'. I'm sorry that this view is probably belittling to your efforts, for a cause which I also believe strongly in. But, remember the 'occupy' movement? They were BIG news about 10 years ago, remember how much 'awareness' they raised about inequality and rampant capitalism? As a result, they really changed the way the economy and society works didn't they?...oh that's right...No they didn't. Without going into detail, I have a lot of experience in this field, and I'm pretty confident I know what gets things done and what doesn't. But that's my view, I could well be wrong. You have your view, and good luck to you with it. Seemingly we both desire the same outcome, but just ddisagree on the more effective ways to achieve that.

fishbiscuits Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > DulwichFox Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > would say that Franco Manca seems pretty > affordable > > Agreed, it is very well priced. BUT.. the last > couple of times I went, it wasn't actually very > good. Raw, doughy centres... not sure if it was > because it wasn't cooked enough, or the sauce was > too watery, or what. But they weren't very good at > all. > > Not tried the new 500 Degrees place. I like > Gowlett, Mamma Dough (Queens rd), and 400 Rabbits > (Nunhead). Voodoo Rays is a bit cack, but TBF I > don't think it's trying to be gourmet. It's more > of a bar with food. Voodoo's was great when they opened. Served massive pizzas with plenty of topping. As time has gone by they obviously decided that people were scoffing at paying 20quid for a pizza (even though they were more than double the size of Franco for example), and brought their pizza down to a standard size...Somewhere in the transition it has be become a bit average. Firezza in here hill was our main option for 'fancy' pizza a few years ago, but it's got a lot of competition nowadays. Mamma dough is our go to now on deliveroo. But keen to try the 500 degrees.

7-8 years ago there was about 6-7 curry joints on lordship lane (Dulwich tandoori, jaflong, surma, tandoori nights, curry cabin from memory) which have now been rationalized, now there's 6-7 pizza joints (Franco manca, 500 degrees, Sylvester, Firezza, the actress (not lordship lane), Olivelli (not strictly pizza), with papa John, dominos, the gowlett and voodoo rays not far away....theyeach serve something slightly different, but the worm will turn and it'll be something else in another 5 years.....

While many fans of extinction rebellion will cite a long and successful history of direct action success. I genuinely don't believe that direct action is in anyway the most effective way to solve a global problem. Sure, you might influence Southwark Council, or if you're lucky, the British government. But how much influence will your Saturday jaunt through Blackheath have on foreign governments who also need to be in alignment to solve a global problem? Sure, the British government may try to exert pressure on foreign leaders, but once again, is your march really the best way to make this come to bear?. It might make you feel good, and you can post it on Instagram, but frankly, and unfortuinatley, its doing bugger all. For example, on a related environmental topic, while its great that the UK government has banned plastic straws, and great that you had an Instagram diary of your plastic free July, it turns out that 90 percent of the plastic that ends up in our oceans comes from just 10 rivers - 8 are in Asia, and 2 are in Africa. Global problems need glo bal solutions. Yes these start local, but if you really want to actually DO something, as opposed to be SEEN doing something, then you should try an maximise your impact from the get go... There are so many better things you can do than disrupting people getting to work, standing on top of trains or marching in the street...... I wonder how many of the well meaning folk going to march in XR know how much of their own money is invested-in and profiting from fossil fuels; and how much of their own money is helping support development of efficiency technologies and cheaper, more reliable renewable generation? I would hazard a guess at the answer being almost none of them. I'm talking about their pension funds of course. You want to really make a difference? examine how you can switch your pensions into more sustainable investment products. The 'direct action' that major, global asset managers (with sustainability mandates)take when they interact with company management will be infinitely more effective than your direct action... For most people you pension pot will be your largest or second largest asset - and I'd bet for most people a good deal of it is making decent dividends off the petroleum majors. So if you REALLY care, then there's your chance. It's an evolving area, but preliminary studies are suggesting re-direction of pension funds are up to 30x more effective than any other action you can take as an individual on climate. Something to think about in anycase.

diable rouge Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > > Sadly shows how toxic this entire debate has > > become... > > Very true, but this has been the doing of the > Leave side from the word go. When we needed a Gov > to try and unify the country behind a version of > Brexit that reflected the closeness of the vote, > which a lot of Remainers would've accepted at the > time, we instead got May's red lines and the voice > of Remain ignored and replaced with insults such > as 'citizen's of nowhere', 'queue jumpers', > 'enemies of the people' and so on. Now Johnson, > despite promising to do the opposite, has managed > to divide the country even more. Whatever the > outcome it will take a very long time to heal this > disunited kingdom, what's left of it... I think you and I have had a version of this discussion before:) I dont disagree. Very sad indeed. On a positive note, as an EU immigrant, I received my settled status last week, so you'll have to put up with me on here for some time yet. Until they change their mind and deport me:)

nxjen Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Seems ironic that democracy is suspended to enable > democracy ?the will of the people?. Clearly a > selective democracy. Unfortunately, it appears that very few people on either side of this debate actually give a f#*k about democracy. They just care about getting the outcome they want, whether that's leave or remain. When leavers were trumpeting the need to respect the democracy of the referendum result, remainers would clutch at straws like 'it was only advisory' or 'it was only 52 percent'...democracy not really a prime concern. Now, with the profoundly undemocratic parliamentary suspension, it's leavers clutching at straws trying to justify the suspension of parliament, similarly democracy not a prime concern. Sadly shows how toxic this entire debate has become...very few (on either side) seem to care for process or principle as long as they get their preferred outcome.....

JohnL Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > "perhaps if people like you didn't behave like you > do you'd be accepted more" takes me right back to > the school playground Wow, you must have a PhD in 'Strawman theory'. 3 times now you've managed to make a tangential comment to highlight your 'perception' of the injustice of my comments. Rather than actually take as read the comments being made. I'm out. For the second time, best of luck.

JohnL Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > JohnL Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > TheCat Wrote: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- > > > > Fully support these people"s right to march > > for > > > > whatever they believe...but perhaps improve > > the > > > > slogan choice? :) > > > > > > > > LET US BE HEARD???? > > > > > > > > This group of remainers haven't shut-up in > 3 > > > > years, I don't think being heard is the > > > problem! > > > > Maybe adjust message or demands slightly? > as > > > > 'another' march demanding the same things > > seems > > > > unlikely to yield any different results > from > > > the > > > > previous 6 marches with the exact same > > message. > > > > > > > > > You remind me of Norman Tebbit talking about > > gay > > > people in the 1980s. > > > > And you remind me of someone unable to accept a > > crtical, but constructive, comment (whats wrong > > with suggesting a different approach to achieve > > the same goals?) without resorting to dog > whistle > > association with something like homophobia. > Grow > > up my friend. > > Sorry you won't shut me up - I'll actually make an > attempt to be even remainier and louder the more > I'm told to shut up. Good for you. If you actually read my comment as its written, instead of just assuming that in your wisdom you know what I 'really meant', then you'll find I have never said you should shut-up. I wish you the best of luck in your loudness.

diable rouge Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Let's suppose they did change the headline slogan, > cue calls from the usual suspects* that they don't > know what they want, no consistency in message etc > etc etc... > > *Thanks Cat, I've now got all 4 corners in this > month's Brexit Bingo card... I think you'll find it actually is a new slogan DR....

JohnL Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Fully support these people"s right to march for > > whatever they believe...but perhaps improve the > > slogan choice? :) > > > > LET US BE HEARD???? > > > > This group of remainers haven't shut-up in 3 > > years, I don't think being heard is the > problem! > > Maybe adjust message or demands slightly? as > > 'another' march demanding the same things seems > > unlikely to yield any different results from > the > > previous 6 marches with the exact same message. > > > You remind me of Norman Tebbit talking about gay > people in the 1980s. And you remind me of someone unable to accept a crtical, but constructive, comment (whats wrong with suggesting a different approach to achieve the same goals?) without resorting to dog whistle association with something like homophobia. Grow up my friend.

Fully support these people"s right to march for whatever they believe...but perhaps improve the slogan choice? :) LET US BE HEARD???? This group of remainers haven't shut-up in 3 years, I don't think being heard is the problem! Maybe adjust message or demands slightly? as 'another' march demanding the same things seems unlikely to yield any different results from the previous 6 marches with the exact same message.