Huguenot

It was in the previous post Silverfox, Development Alternatives Inc. It's not possible to draw a line between offering aid, and delivering change. It all comes down to ?Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime? The feeding of mass populations needs organisation and infrastructure that are impossible to differentiate from 'western business values'.

I'm not sure you have any evidence for that assertion regarding chelsea - so it's just a scare tactic. Besides, these things should be addressed at the appropriate time with the appropriate information. In the final analysis we'd like a fire station at the end of every road, and a hospital and a police station, school etc. However, we just can't afford it, so we need to make some sensible decisions about what we're willing to pay for, and what we're not. There's no clarity in this debate from the FFs, but there's splendid case studies from the Fire Brigade proving that changing shifts is good for all.

Well maybe between the lines the firefighters are worried that more sensible shift patterns may result in centralisation of night services, and a demand for fewer firefighters. That's something Unions hate more than anything as it raises the likelihood of redundancies. The problem is that it's exactly why I have an antipathy to unions - because they'd prefer to stay inefficient and demanding more cash. Even if this is the case (because there's been absolutely no evidence presented yet)I don't actually agree that this is 'reduced fire cover' because it's rare at night that fire demands exceed available firemen, and quieter roads mean greater distances can be covered in less time. This 'prelude to privatisation' stuff seems nonsensical union rabble rousing, and this 'all getting sacked' is also a 'technicality' red herring, because really they're just getting new contracts. Nobody seems to actually have a view that the new contracts are bad, it's just that they don't like getting new ones.

The mistake that you're making Fuschia is that it isn't a mortgage company, it's the public purse. The UK people refuse to pay any more tax - in fact they vote for the parties that offer tax cuts. The public have also run up a huge debt by borrowing against their children's future. UK Plc. is quite literally on the point of insolvency, the question in our public services is whether we reorganise them to increase efficiency, and make cuts where possible, or whether we quite simply go bust - and then damage all our public services possibly irretrievably. In any case, your view on contracts isn't accurate. Contracts are rarely completely binding, and will have a number of clauses that will result in early termination. The FFs have to bear these straightened circumstances as much as anyone. If that means admitting that some of the night time cover is a poorly used luxury in our current circumstances then we have to accept that as well. In answer to SMG, the management seems clear - the new shift patterns are more healthy, create better firefighters, more streamlined, more cost efficient, and allow more flexible fire cover to meet the changed world we live in: There is evidence that the current 9 hour split between night shifts is insufficient - it creates an impairment equivalent to being over the alcohol legal limit in the second shift. That the extended night shift itself creates a negative health impact through repeated sleep deprivation. Business hours have changed in the last 30 years - with many retail premises open 8am to 8 pm, consequently changing demand patterns. They also made clear that changing shifts at rush hour wasn't the brightest thing in the world, as it creates a shift change at the highest points in demand on the service. The new shift patterns also increase contact with a school age child from 11 to 13 hours per shift pattern - an increase in family friendliness not a decrease. In fact, it's all in the attached document in a fantastic and clearly constructed study into the issues involved.

Jeez katie1997, you're quite happy to call US special forces lying idiots when they're risking their lives to save a UK citizen, but if someone suggests that might possibly make you sound a bit idiotic you completely throw your toys out of the pram. Quite happy to dish it out aren't you? Not so happy to take it. Cognitive dissonance was Louisiana's choice of words, suggesting that I'd misunderstood you. I was asking you if I'd misunderstood you? If I had misunderstood your irony then I was suggesting that it might be too subtle. It was of course you who told me that you weren't interested in my opinions after rubbishing climate change science on the 10:10 thread. Once more I'd asked you if you were being ironic, but it seemed answering that was somewhat below you.

I think we've just come full circle. As was said a page ago, they can believe whatever they want, it was still the appliance of science and the industry of mankind that got them out of that mine. God would have left them to starve.

I'm impressed by the generosity of spirit, by the desire to get involved, and by the positive ambition demonstrated by the parents on this thread. Not. If DJKQ is wondering why education is struggling in the UK she doesn't need to look far.

I think you're clutching at straws here Silverfox. Science is a process, it's the activity that humans engaged in that facilitated the rescue. If they hadn't praised the Lord they'd still have been rescued. If they hadn't engaged in science they'd still be right where they were, and dead. I think you should be proud of the baboon analogy Silverfox, as it shows there's hope for you yet.

Cross post

You're just wrong again, our baboon is very much using science. Here's a useful definition: "Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is an enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the natural world." The baboon knew that the ants were in the hill, he hypothecated tht if he could insert a tool into the hill he could access the ants, he experimented until he found the right piece of grass. When the baboon saw the pen, he recognised the characteristics it shared with the grass, and concluded that it would achieve the same goals. He tested it, and proved it to be so. Your point about the miners is nonsense, you're trying to equate 'concepts' like adversity, with 'process' like science. Besides, you're now moving the goalposts. The question was who or what saved the miners - God or science. The answer is science. God was noticeable by his lack of heavy industrial plant. He did however, have plenty of rather ineffectual platitudes.

I don't think anyone wants to play down the dangers of the job. This is just a dispute about contracts that these big burly heroes are trying to turn into a debate about why noone loves them enough. That's one hell of a leap - to claim that a disagreement about FF contracts is actaully an attack on poor and vulnerable in society. It's also a bit rough to decide that the Fire Brigade are all liars, and that there's some secret grand plan to lock us all in lifts. I don't think it's rational to assume that the FFs aren't campaigning with their own best interests at heart. The fact that this strike coincides with a protest about pay freezes, pensions and that FFs don't like call centres comes as no surprise. Anyway, does anyone actually know what's in these new contracts that the FBU doesn't like? I couldn't find anything on their website.

Sounds a bit more real doesn't it though brum? All this posturing over something that sounds like a storm in a teacup, and then ah!... moment of clarity. I don't think it's a 'low view', it's just realistic. People aren't angels or heroes except in children's books.

This sounds suspiciously like the core of the matter.

I'm interested in the 'naive' bit, Fuschia. Can you educate me? What have I missed?

Ha ha, very good Silverfox, that good old 'gut feel' eh? *Chortles* 'Science' provided the tools. Everything. The forge, the steel, the carbon drill bits, the hydrocarbons that turned the motor, the nylon overalls, the planned diet. To think otherwise is quite simply blind. Stupid, in fact. Doof, hand to forehead stuff. In fact, why don't you read about it. Get yourself an education. Here's Wallace Carothers, the scientist who invented Nylon. Here's Sir Henry Bessemer, the metallurgist who pioneered modern steel through the application of science. Here's physicist Nicolas Sadi Carnot who worked out the theory for an internal combustion engine. Here's Ignacy Lukasiewicz the chemist who invented a refining process to give him the fuel to run it. You silly man. Quite simply, silverfox, you are so blinded by your prejudice that you cannot accept that every inch of your existence is down to the 'science' of other people. You take it all for granted and you are ungrateful. Patently ridiculous, and an insult to everyone who worked so hard to make your life easy. 'Industry' (in the sense of combined effort, like ants) provided the infrastructure. "by means of old fashioned pulling together and a sense of order" this, with all due respect, is a load of romanticised blart. Complete fecking bullshit. A bit of old fashioned British backslapping that 'made this country great' etc.

I think AirAsia might do a decently priced flight via Kuala Lumpur. They're a good airline run by an ex Virgin boss, and I use them all the time locally. I'm aware that flight prices are often different based on local economies. I can only compare UK/SG prices, but it's possible to buy a VPN line that will make your computer 'appear' to be in different countries for aboput $8 for a month. You need to manage your own expectations too - your current price might be in the high 700s, but how much cheaper do you expect to get it for what kind of effort?

"as someone said before if you?ve been in a fire they are heroes" You've just done it again Dougal. This is NOT an argument. "You may never have had bullying managers, I have and there is always an imbalance of power" This is the point I just made, can you not see the contradiction here? What are they, heroes or weedies? The OP does NOT make it clear that this is about terms and conditions, all the OP does is insist this is about terms and conditions. Saying so doesn't make it so. There's no rational discussion about what these terms and conditions are, just a load of old bicep clenching blart.

This is cognitive dissonance again right katie1997? I still maintain that if your observations are so blessed witty that they're indisnguishable from restrained idiocy then you'll fail to meet your objectives. Even Swift had to resort to eating babies to convey his concerns. I appreciate that you don't give a flying f about my opinions, but hey, if you're posting on a public forum then you must give one about somebody's opinions right?

It seems to me that the only well informed rational post on this subject has been MM's. No-one actually knows at the moment what the firefighters are protesting against. What specifically are the terms being offered, and how do they compare with the previous situation? I suspect that the lack of clarity on this issue is a reflection of the lack of substance to the protest. Has nobody else seen the lack of consistency in hailing the heroic nature of firefighters and then suggesting they're 'bullied' by management? I mean, come on guys, either you're raging supermen, or you're cowering floopies. Make a choice. I respect Carnell's observations, but it's mostly about union dogma, not about finding a solution to what looks suspiciously like a groundless quest for cash. And finally, can people please desist from trying to support one side or the other on the basis that firefighters are woo wow angels? What a rubbish rubbish argument.

It's quite fun to price it up (if you're into that kind of thing of course). The AA estimates the average ?15,000 car costs ?4,000 a year in Road Tax, Insurance, Cost of Capital, Depreciation and Breakdown Cover. So ten days of that is roughly ?110. Most cars average around 6 miles per litre, so the 50 mile round trip will cost you ?10 Running costs for things like tyres and maintenance is estimated at about 8p per mile excluding petrol, so that's ?4 for this trip. So if you include the parking fees, then the real cost of having your own car and driving yourself to Heathrow for this ten day trip is ?179. It's amazing how expensive running a car is. It makes taking journeys in taxis positively cheap in comparison!

What was the 33? Driving in the bus lane? Both could be contested on the grounds that the 'legal' highway was blocked by something untoward (traffic doesn't count). You'd need evidence. However, if you were driving in the bus lane I haven't got much sympathy, and if you were trying to gain advantage by hopping the box junction it's also hard to feel too sorry either.

The fishponds here? Just near the 'W' in Westerham Road. You can zoom in by clicking on the + symbol in the upper left hand corner. View Larger Map

"If the actual recession comes that we should have had and not the phoney recession we are in" That's quite interesting, not heard it before - explain further?

In fact, that whole thread's a pretty good insight into pre-crash thinking. It's a real shame Alan Dale played his 'delete history' card. Worse than Stalin I say.

Ha ha. I take SMG's September 2007 comment, and trump it with this from March 27th 2007 (pre crash): "In this sense, whether house prices are likely to drop is irrelevant, don't even bother with the argument - investing in houses is already a bad idea unless you want to live there! Similarly, from a long term perspective, I think we are all going to be underwater soon? This is not free money... Alan, I notice that on other threads you recommend disinformation as a route to financial gain - is this urging to buy houses a reflection of your willingness to capitalise on defrauding others about value?" Oh yes, I am a God.