JoeLeg

I don?t think people with an education feel ashamed, but a dangerous and false equivalence is being spread by the internet and populism; ?Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'? Isaac Asimov Micheal Gove has tried to pull back from his statement about experts, realising that he has damaged the credibility of people we rely on. It?s one of the most insidious and vile effects of the referendum, the denigration of academia and learning. When people start to believe that those with knowledge are the enemy, and view them as ?not real people? - which has been happening - we have started to tread a dangerous and unfortunately well-worm path.

robbin Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > JL, aren't you too busy posting hourly updates on > this thread to find time to don your tin foil hat > and stock up with tinned goods? ;) If you think this thread has regular updates, you should see what the one on Arrse looks like...averaging over a thousand posts a week! https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/brexit-phase-two-trade.268800/

uncleglen Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > JohnL Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > He probably stated it in words she could > understand- because she sure as hell did not heed > his more detailed advice earlier on.... And why should she? > Khans excuse for allowing the puerile baby trump > to fly- 'it's not my role to be a censor'....what > a hypocrite after he banned all bikini ads on the > underground within weeks of taking office! You don?t like Khan as a person. Your entire view of him is tainted by that fact. > It's a pity all you naysayers do not read what > Trump has achieved whilst in office......still you > lot never did like the truth Job growth rates in the US are actually slowing now. The whole healthcare debate is sill raging and he?s embroiled in a tariff war with China. These are the actions of someone who is determined to shake things up and like a snow globe we are a long way from seeing where the dust will settle. The USA is a remarkably fractured society socially and racially, and he seems reluctant to drain the swamp as much as he promised too so this seems unlikely to change. By far the highest driver of equality is a *lack* of mistrust and bigotry, leading to a level playing field, something the USA manifestly lacks. America is far from being the land of milk and obey for all its citizens. However, pretty much everything he has done is domestic US policy and as such very much their business and not ours. Internationally he?s been a much more divisive figure and has failed to actually deliver much. His summit with Putin will be an interesting test. As far as the truth is concerned, you seem to only be on speaking terms with it when it conforms to your narrow little echo chamber, so I?m not sure I?m taking lectures from you there.

Alan Medic Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Now it doesn't matter to some in authority what > damage is done, as long as the democratic 'will of > the people' is followed > > 716333057 > > This tweet makes me sick. A load of bollix is a > load of bollix. Pritti Patel is a vile individual. She?s a really nasty piece of work.

diable rouge Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Shouty angry people will of course be easiest > heard, but that doesn't necessarily mean they hold > the majority view... > https://twitter.com/chrishanretty/status/101661529 > 9448299521 True in pure theory, but I?m sure you?d agree social media is capable of creating a kind of ?mob mentality?, whereby people who read it. - but don?t necessarily participate - end up with tremendous amounts of confirmation bias and cease to think for themselves. > The problem with Brexit is that it was only ever a > concept. In it's simplest form one could say that > it was primarily about leaving the EU. But we know > there are many ways to do that. So you will always > get ''It's not what I voted for!'' > comments...usually in CAPS :) Well, yes. Exactly. And exactly what a lot of people are yelling. Some are no doubt Putin-Bots, but there?s still a lot of them who can?t quite understand why their own personal, specific view of what Brexit should be isn?t being enacted. This is going to run and run, and probably still nothing will really change.

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > All the wailing and gnashing of teeth from > Brexiters is quiet breathtaking. They won the vote > to leave the EU and it looks like that's what's > going to happen. Still they're not happy. Are > there any circumstances at all under which they > would be placated I wonder? For many of them I doubt. The vitriol and hatred on social media is astonishing. Now, I know that?s Twitter etc, and not to be taken entirely seriously, but I do feel it?s noteworthy how many people see this as a deliberate attempt by May to destroy Brexit. Personally I think they?re deluding themselves on many levels, but I wouldn?t ignore them. Right now there seems to be a lot of anger; mostly to me it shows just how many people are willing to crash out on a hard Brexit? As well as demonstrating the folly of letting each individual think they can define Brexit.

Over-rated, unfortunately. I took our eldest and she had a blast but she loves bouncy castles more then almost anything in the world and there were four of them! She had a great time. If it hadn?t been like that then it would?ve been a massive let-down. Wouldn?t go again.

Labour are also aware just how many of their supporters are keen Brexiters, especially in the North. They?re trying to be all things to all voters.

StraferJack Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > "Those who made this choice must now deliver the > Brexit THEY promised; " and what was that brexit? > You can't define it because it doesn't exist. > There are too many competing versions of brexit > for any of them to come to the fore and be > accepted by the others. And I have long been saying much the same. But Rees-Mogg and Johnson and many others seem to believe that Brexit will deliver a land of unicorns and flowing honey, and that it had no possible downside. To which I say, ?ok mate, give me what you promised! Where?s my #%^*ing unicorns and honey?? Because apparently that was what the hardliners think we will get, so when I say they need to deliver the Brexit THEY promised, I mean that they literally made promises to us, and it?s up to them to deliver. I accept that their vision may have run up against cold hard reality, though I?m not sure they do. > > Complaining about EU intransigence is pointless - > it's a rule based organisation and it's simply > applying the rules. If all the EU are doing is applying the rules then I have no argument with them. We knew the rules when we left. It's this country > (well,England basically) that is the problem - it > can't agree on what kind of brexit it wants - even > if EU allowed Uk to cherry pick and compromised in > some areas, it wouldn't be enough for the > headbangers Agreed, with the caveat that idiots exist on both sides of most negotiations and I?m hoping the EU keep theirs under control because we most certainly are not keeping ours. > > The basic truth is this - the whole thing is a > folly. And simply pointing to a 2 year old, dodgy, > referendum and claiming it as some iron-clad "will > of the people", in the face of such damage is > plain insane > Again, I agree. > Other countries have follow-up referendums and > absolutely no reason same can't happen here. Any > problems you might raise about holding a second > refrendum are but a subset of the problems we will > face anyway if we simply proceed All true, but I still don?t think they?ll give us one.

keano77 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > JoeLeg Wrote > > > The big question is what will the EU do? > > Who cares? > I think you?ve missed the point. I?m talking about the EU response to our negotiations. I think we can all agree that so long as all sides pursue the blame game and point fingers, there will be no winners and ordinary citizens, both in the U.K. and EU, will be the ones who suffer. May, Hammond, Fox, Rees-Mogg, Barnier and Junckers are all going to be fine whatever the outcome. I have less and less faith in all of them as time goes on, and I?m not so dogmatic as to believe there are only idiots on our side (though there certainly are). Or perhaps you haven?t missed the point, and you think hard Brexit is the way to go? > The EU is about to implode. Italian banks bust. > Greece needs another bail-out. Merkel is history > and Schengen disintegrating. Macron (the Sun King) > humiliated by Trump and hated by his people etc All of this is very possible. It?s also in the realm of theory right now, and I?m more concerned with the negotiations. > What drugs are you remainders on? Cheap ad hom, and frankly beneath you. The central point that concerns me right ow is the entrenched nature of the three competing interests - Soft and Hard Brexiters here, and the EU. We triggered A50 far too early and that played into the EU?s hands. We?re on the back foot because of that, added to which May is proving a colossal disaster as PM. Once again the Tory party is being riven by debates (screaming arguments!) about Europe, and as a result the most important political issue for a generation is being held up by ego and hubris. We voted, we?re Leaving. I don?t like it but that?s by the by. Those who made this choice must now deliver the Brexit THEY promised; unfortunately the EU is part of that.

Some things are above our pay-grade. We can barely affect our own got, it?s pointless worrying about the Russian govt.

While I respect Hersch, that?s an article from RT, and thus pretty suspect. I might try and track down the original broadcast. That being said, yes, it?s now officially pretty weird.

I think she?s trapped and she knows it, and she knows we know. She?s always had a reputation for being able to duck trouble, and be seen as a safe pair of hands. At the Home Office she managed to always find a compromise way through, something that would often satisfy no one but was enough of a fudge to make her look competent. Now that isn?t an option; hard Brexiters are holding her feet to the fire, and much like all Conservative PM?s she?s at the mercy (as she sees it) of hardline Eurosceptics. Whether they actually have enough ammo to bring her down and get their way is another matter, but right now I think both May and the hardliners believe they do. She doesn?t have anything other than ?Brexit means Brexit?. They pulled the trigger on A50 waaaay too fast, and now the clock is ticking. As I said before, I don?t think they actually know what to do. However, I think the Boris/Jacob lot are keen to move the process along too - if we crash our hard and it goes badly they will be held accountable and they know it. Everyone is looking for a way out. The big question is what will the EU do? If they play more hardball it risks handing the moral ohh ground back to the hard Brexiters, ascthey say ?look, we tried to negotiate but they didn?t want to?, which I think would be a grave error on the part of the EU, as it will make them look bad and give succour to anti-EU movements in other nations. They?re all thrashing around trying to come up with a compromise that they can all live with.

Farage is blatantly trying to whip up mob hysteria. Someone needs to give him a slap. The man makes me sick, such a lying, hypocritical, vain narcissist. He doesn?t give a #%^* for people who voted to Remain, he?d happily deport anyone who argues against Brexit. Godwin?s notwithstanding, commentary like that is reminiscent of the 30?s. My grandfather told a chilling tale of what he heard ordinary people say when he visited Germany during that time, and ho they rejected any view that opposed the prevailing ideology. He said it was then that he knew war was inevitable. Now I don?t believe we?re heading for any kind of civil unrest, but it?s depressing, so depressing that otherwise intelligent people feel comfortable making the same kind of commentary in the 21st century.

Reading the responses on Twitter by Leave supporters to the above tweets, what amazes me - and has done for some time - is the view of some of them that the govt should ?deliver the Brexit we voted for?. But we didn?t vote for any particular Brexit, save for simply leaving. How any of them can now claim that the govt is not implementing their wishes is beyond me. We were asked if we wanted to Remain or Leave; nothing more. We don?t get any further say in the matter. Unfortunately...

So you criticise the French for ignoring things they don?t like, but on the same breath declare that you ignore anything said by the civil service because you have incontrovertible proof that every last one of them is a Remainer. Do you see the cognitive dissonance in your statement? Do you not see the hypocrisy with you just ignoring things that say stuff you don?t want to hear?

StraferJack Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > What does the ?ruling elite? gain from giving > birth to something they know will destroy the > country? > Well, they?re divided into two - the Jacob and Boris crowd genuinely believe this is the way forward. They think this is a good idea. As for the rest of them? I think they?re scared, bluntly. They didn?t think they?d lose the referendum. They didn?t think Trump would get elected. They didn?t think the Tories would get such a beating at the GE. They don?t have any idea which way the electorate will jump on any given issue and they aren?t about to let them have a say if they can avoid it. And I personally think those who believe Brexit to be a bad idea have no idea what to do. I think they?re running scared and hoping some kind of Deus Ex Machina will emerge and somehow solve it all. > British precedent alone says the ?elite? caved > in/persuaded/misrepresented on Iraq (yep, the > people wanted that. They won?t admit it now tho) > > What will the people say when it turns to shit? > Unlike Iraq, this country doesn?t get to walk away > I agree. I?ve long said that most of the things Leave voters blame the EU for have been wholly of our own making. I?m concerned about that. Leave voters will say that it means we can hold our MP?s to account at the ballot box, which just makes me laugh. > > > https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/06/03/remembering-i > raq/ > > I simply state: the country needs to > ratify/reject a decision this big. Anything else > is blind, arrogant folly Strafer mate, I never said we shouldn?t have such a vote (or if I did then I mis-spoke/typed); I believe rathercthay they will never give it to us. They don?t have to, so they?re not going to. (Ok, caveat - I can envisage it happening if everything goes so totally to ratshit that we start to resemble Italian politics, but if things get that bad we?ll be in real trouble).

Jesus wept Strafer... I can?t say anything that I haven?t already. But I?ll try. I do not believe the political will exists in the UK for any further public consultation. Theresa May is hemmed in by hard Brexiters who are pushing their agenda. To their mind they got the result they wanted and they aren?t about to bother asking again - they don?t see why they should. Why are we different from other countries? Well, I suppose we?re not, but I believe that there are enough extreme Brexiters in the UK that would scream and yell if another vote was held, and they frequentlyvreference the second referendum in Ireland as what they perceive as an example of it being repeated just to get the ?right? result - Dulwich Fox is a perfect example as he demonstrated - and as such politicians are terrified of them. Finally, why would they? What does the ruling political elite gain from asking us what we think again? Cameron went for it because his hubris and arrogance convinced him it was on the bag; both May and Osbourne warned against it. Why would they risk it now? I simply can think of no benefit to Cons or Lab in holding another referendum. So ultimately I guess I reckon the main reason they won?t do it is because there?s nothing in it for them. Cameron only did it because he was crapping himself over UKIP. Diable - UKIP existed when people reckoned they could ride it to Article 50. It then collapsed when they didn?t call it on the morning. I believe that if there was a genuine feeling that we weren?t going to leave that you?d see them grow again. I have no idea where this is going to end up. I can?t fathom how the govt is going to figure it all out but Leave voters keep telling me it?s all go to be ok so surely their blind faith will be enough to see us through? No, I don?t really believe it will either...

StraferJack Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Joeleg said: > ?No one with half a brain really thinks there will > be a second vote? > > This will not age well. It?s possible there will > not be a second vote. But it?s more likely there > will > > And if there is not a second vote, the outcome > will make people ?with half a brain? wish there > was. Why anyone with ?half a brain?, with > knowledge of other countries, of history, would so > easily dismiss a second vote is curious Ok, let me clarify then. There is, I believe, zero chance of a ?second referendum? as currently proposed by many Remain supporters. Zero. None. Nada. It?s not going to happen. They are also not going to give us a vote on the final deal. Can you imagine the public outcry from Leave voters if a second one returned a Remain result? They would demand a third ?run-off?, because all we have then is a tie. It would also be a short trip to a UKIP presence in government and that?s a horrifying thought. Look, I voted Remain. I still believe leaving the EU is a mistake, but I?m also a pragmatist. We?ve triggered A50 and so the wheels are set in motion. The time to prevent it was before that. Will there be another vote 40 years down the line? Quite possibly. But right now we?re stuck on this path. The Leave contingent gets to drag all of us along for the ride with promises and demands for our faith in them, placating is with emotional appeals that have no solid basis in demonstrable fact; they have nothing more. Maybe they?ll be right? Maybe this will turn out to be a grand new dawn? I doubt it personally. The referendum result shocked those in power into remembering why they don?t let the public make these choices. They aren?t going to be holding any more anytime soon. We?re all being shoehorned into a ride into the total dark.

DulwichFox Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > So we have a second vote.. and it goes the other > way.. ? > > so we have a third vote.. Best out of Three.. and > two more..Best out of Five. > > We have all played that game in the Playground > when were 8 Years Old. Hi Foxy, have you found that post where someone said all Leavers are racist yet? I?m keen to see it.

flocker spotter Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- Brexit is a symption of the infection. When we focus on process and minutae, we can miss the big picture, even it it staring us in the face.There is something deepy wrong in UK society- as much as i detest the bull headed gammon ramblings, I dont think that many of them are able to view the big picture- and i hate to say it, i can kinda understand their tubthumping to a degree- brexit isnt going to make any of these ills go away > brexiteers have a tenous and ill founded grasp on > the real world sometimes, as do EU flag waving > remainers. this isn't about racism. Brexit will > never bring about this poorly defined ideal of > freedom any more than remaining in the EU will. > The sooner everyone realises that they have been > sold a mangy pup over the past century and have > been taken the piss out of , the sooner we can > move on and actually distill something good out of > this. > > big pictures are better than thunbnails, arguemnts > about racism on either side are a diversion and a > convenient sideshow that takes the focus away from > the inherent bstructural failings of the distorted > mirage of democracy we have been spoon fed since > birth. I?d just like to repeat that I fervently agree with all of this.

citylover Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I cannot wait for Brexit and if it isn't delivered > as it was meant to be, end of free movement, > reinstating British Law as the highest law in the > land etc us Leavers will fight on because it's > worth it for our democracy. MP's are not there to > decide what's good for us, as some Remainers like > to argue,they are there to represent us and the > sooner they do the better.All these arguments > about job losses etc were fully played out during > the r eferendum and Leavers considered, with all > things considered, Brexit is the only acceptable > way forward. There will be positives and negatives > as with everything in life, Remainers prefer to > play up the bad, which you can do, but all it does > is harm the national interest, it does not get you > a second vote. Why? Because then there will have > to be a third, a fourth, a fifth ad infinitum and > we are not Ireland, we do not vote until the > little people finally give the 'right' answer. You do understand that the same democracy which gave you victory in the referendum allows other people to continue arguing their case, don?t you? Yes, A50 has been invoked and we will be leaving the EU. End of. But do you seriously think you live in a world where other people aren?t allowed to disagree with you? You seem to genuinely think that the 48% who votes the other way should no lonnger be allowed an opinion, and I suspect that isn?t what you really think. No one with half a brain really thinks there will be a second vote, so that?s a bit of a straw man on your part. But if you think the general debate is over then you?re mistaken. Surely you see that? There have been savage divisions pushed into our society in the last two years and it?s high time we started dealing with it. Telling people that their opinions aren?t welcome isn?t going to do that.

DulwichFox. > > > Stop branding Brexiteers as Racists. > > DulwichFox Foxy mate, firstly who branded all Brexiters as racists? Kindly quote the post please. Secondly, you need to understand something very clearly. Not all Leave voters are racists by any stretch, but the Brexit vote HAS given succour to the racist section of society. Whether you like that fact or not, as Leave voters it?s something you have to own up to. Just as Remainers should not have been so dismissive on immigration, you shouldn?t be so dismissive of the reasons behind some of the people who voted Leave. Stop trying to pretend all of you think the same. Plus everything else Flockerspotter said, emphatically.

uncleglen Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > https://www.metro.news/bmw-bosses-we-are-here-to-s > tay-hard-brexit-or-not/1118446/ > Andrew may have to relocate though..... You haven?t actually *read* the article, have you? It doesn?t paint as rosy a picture as you?d like to make us believe. Yes BMW are staying, but like the rest of business they?d like to be reassured that the supply chain will be unaffected, something which you lot have not addressed yet. > And BEING in the EU did not help Southampton > workers- their jobs were moved to Turkey > http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10020273.Ford_s___ > 80m_EU_loan_to_boost_Turkey_factory_-_and_close_ou > And what the hell has that got to do with your Brexit position? How on Earth can you think that backs up your point? James Dyson moved his whole operation to Indonesia with an EU loan, and he?s a massive Leaver. > AND I wonder how much marching powder DD stuck up > his nose- in true East End Lad fashion before the > show? Classy. Someone says something that challenges your view of how things are progressing and you assume he?s on drugs. I don?t suppose you stopped for a moment to ask yourself if he actually has a point? I have news for you - people ARE confused by Brexit. And that is YOUR fault. Yes, you personally. You and every Leave voter. You voted for this, it?s now your personal responsibility to handle it correctly. And you?re not. You wanted this, you need to be controlling it. I was talking with a committed Leave voter yesterday; he?s furious at how the govt straight away sold out the fishing industry, which is 100% behind Brexit. He doesn?t understand why we aren?t being firmer, and there?s plenty like him. Leave, Remain, those that didn?t vote or didn?t care, none of them can tell us right now what exactly is goinb on. That?s a failure by any measure, and it?s your fault. All of you. You voted for this, and you?re #%^*ing it up, completely. Well done, hope you?re proud of yourself.

Jacqui5254 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I stopped going to Gail's after I formally > requested that they covered the food on the > central table as there are often flies crawling on > the cakes and sandwiches. > > Head office said they took my health concerns > seriously. > > Last time I went in to Gail's in Dulwich Village > and Wimbledon there was no coverings and nothing > had changed. > > So, I will be happy to exchange my spinach and > taleggio quiche for a Greggs sausage roll any day. > > > It's all about respecting your customers, folks! More than that, it?s a major EHO violation. You can get in serious trouble for that, I?m astonished they don?t cover them.