j.a.

Angelina Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think it's ok. > > I have nothing to hide and trust my Government to > do it properly Hahahaahaaaaaahaahaahahahahaha?😂😂😂 Thanks, I needed a laugh.

keano77 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Come on Sephiroth cheer up. Things could be worse. > Imagine how Le petit sun king Macron feels with a > 60% disapproval rating, Marseille and banlieues in > French cities imploding, jobs lost due to > cancelled submarine offers and the first round of > the Presidential election just round the corner. None of which has anything to do with our own incompetent govt but it gives Keano a warm feeling which shows what a total #%^* he is.

Ah, Lou?s back 😀! I?m guessing the cooler weather has driven you indoors and back to the warmth you gain from your inner fury? (I?m not saying you?re wrong?)

SpringTime Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Do London residents still enjoy 24 times as much > infrastructure spending as residents in N.E. > England? Perhaps we could have a flag to celebrate > that - one that's nice of course. A rainbow made > out of leeches or something. This is a good point and you should raise it with Johnson regarding his ?promise? to level up, because you won?t find *anybody* who objects to the regions being given the help they need. At the same time, remind me how much of the job market and tax base London and the SE provides? Hmmm? Also have you looked around and seen just how much the infrastructure *actually costs* in London? Do you like all the roads and hospitals and schools? Do you think the money for them just magically appears? Exactly why is it London residents fault that successive governments have ignored the regions? Why am I a leech because both Tory and Labour took the north and midlands for granted? Moreover, if I?m sucking the life out of the NE the. So are you. Except neither of us are. Absolutely nobody is saying that there isn?t a chronic imbalance in this country. I challenge you to find just one person who thinks we shouldn?t invest heavily in deprived regions. I also challenge you to find evidence that this govt will actually do it. So we?ve gone from flags to transvestism and thrown in a bit of Sadiq and London-bashing. Peak EDF.

SpringTime Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Do London residents still enjoy 24 times as much > infrastructure spending as residents in N.E. > England? Perhaps we could have a flag to celebrate > that - one that's nice of course. A rainbow made > out of leeches or something. This is a good point and you should raise it with Johnson regarding his ?promise? to level up, because you won?t find *anybody* who objects to the regions being given the help they need. At the same time, remind me how much of the job market and tax base London and the SE provides? Hmmm? Also have you looked around and seen just how much the infrastructure *actually costs* in London? Do you like all the roads and hospitals and schools? Do you think the money for them just magically appears? Exactly why is it London residents fault that successive governments have ignored the regions? Why am I a leech because both Tory and Labour took the north and midlands for granted? Moreover, if I?m sucking the life out of the NE then so are you. Except neither of us are. Absolutely nobody is saying that there isn?t a chronic imbalance in this country. I challenge you to find just one person who thinks we shouldn?t invest heavily in deprived regions. I also challenge you to find evidence that this govt will actually do it. So we?ve gone from flags to transvestism and thrown in a bit of Sadiq and London-bashing. Peak EDF.

TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > One doesn't have to look very far for regular > impotent whining..... Or for arrogant, smarmy punditry from massive hypocrites.

There?s no doubt Biden has utterly screwed this up, but IDS is letting Trump and Pompeo off the hook for the awful deal they struck with the Taliban which sowed the seeds for this state of affairs. It was basically a nod and a wink to Afghanistan that the US was no longer bothered, which allowed the Taliban to bribe and bully its way through the country and ensure that when America left they would face no opposition as they swept into Kabul. Biden them compounded this with the manner of the American withdrawal. I mean it?s hard to know where Trumps ignorance ends and Bidens arrogance begins, but between them they?ve concocted one of the worst foreign policy disasters since Vietnam.

While me and Seabag are understandably furious about the situation hospitality/catering is in, the trouble in the haulage industry is worse. We need trucks to get stuff from A to B. We haven?t invented teleportation or robot drivers yet so we need actual humans for the job, and because massive trucks aren?t the same as a bicycle these people need to be skilled. It takes time to become good at anything, and you want the drivers to be good because an accident involving a massive, heavy truck is far worse than one involving a bike. Now I?m guessing that most Brexiters would like to distance themselves from the overly-simplistic (to the point of dangerous) views that he espouses, but unfortunately he?s representative of what a lot of people think - that these problems are simple to solve. They aren?t. As I say, we can raise wages all you like - in the end you, the consumer, are paying those wages - but it still takes time to implement. And the haulage industry was warning you about this a long time ago, you just didn?t listen.

Deleted - double post

Innit mate! There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding by many people of just how intense the staff shortages are. Haulage, hospitality, construction, farming, food production. These are all areas that have relied on immigration for decades now. See also the NHS, which is now actively recruiting former staff that have returned abroad (I got that from the outgoing head of a major London hospital). Let?s not get started on the dreadful situation social care is in? The common response is ?raise wages?. Yes, cool, got no problem with that. But do you understand that means we will pass that cost into the customer? As will anyone else in the same position? If you?re fine with stuff costing more then cool, let?s do it. But don?t complain to me when your burger, your brick wall, your farm produce and so on all start costing more. The industries listed above are not ones associated with massive profit margins. If your answer is that profits should drop to accommodate the public then A LOT of people are going bust. Also, those industries are not ones where automation and technology can replace humans. You can?t automate building houses, picking strawberries, making coffee, gutting fish or driving lorries. You just?can?t. We need people to do those jobs, and when the govt blithely tells us to invest in the domestic workforce and we then advertise higher wages and lower hours and STILL get ZERO applications (as so many businesses are) then you start to wonder why?? As the recent Sarah O?Connor article in the FT explained, our labour market is pretty broken. It needs deep fixes and we were told Brexit would do this. Well maybe it will, but it hasn?t yet and it doesn?t seem to me to be on the horizon. If it does then great, but thus far all I see is more of the same ?it?ll be fine? blas? nonsense. How long before people start admitting that we are either going to have to accept stuff costing more in order to pay British people to do the jobs (which strangely they still don?t seem keen on doing even though wages are rising fast) or we have to increase economic immigration? The alternative is more of what Seabag talks about.

@Cat On this subject, I feel this is basically you being described here...(MLK quote, that is) As Sephiroth says, yes I do have direct involvement in this. My wife still gets called a nigger outside London for example. I have extremely strong feelings on the subject and I frankly don't have time for what I believe to be people - any people - telling black people *how* they are comfortable with anti-racism being done. (Edited to make this clear - CRT and certain aspects of the BLM movement are definitely problematic and should be closely examined, though I'd throw in the caveat that the Black Panthers were seen in the same light and with hindsight we can see that they were an understandable reaction to gross racial abuses by the US authorities. While I utterly reject 'defund the police' for example, I can see how black people are tired of being shot.) SO this isn't CRT being discussed - where as I say you might be surprised to hear that we would likely agree - but basic empathy for people who have to endure...well, you've surely seen what happened since the penalty shoot-out?! I was amazed (though I'm not sure why, he's a good person) to see the force of Johnny Mercer MP's thoughts on the subject, and I think people should take them on board. Yeah, I have *very* strong feelings on this subject. I'm not about to apologise for that. I try to be a reasonable human being and see both sides of arguments but at this stage in my life enough is enough. I need to hand a better world to my mixed race children.

Sorry (not sorry) Cat. You?re wrong. You?re on the wrong side of history, the wrong side of the argument, the wrong side of all of this. These people you refer to - the silent majority I guess you?d call them - are also wrong. I?m tired of pretending they have a point. They don?t. They insist on it being something else, because they WANT it to be something else. You will never agree that you got this wrong, well?that?s your problem. I?m done engaging with your childish trolling. Just to be clear - you?re wrong.

keano77 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Or, the Protocol could be ripped up and we start > again as the EU has never understood NI. > > Isn?t the marching season around the corner? You really are a nasty piece of work.

@cat A quote I found elsewhere which sums it up better than I can: ?There is a very prevalent attitude that any criticism of the country is somehow one ?hating? ones country. Never have I heard anyone who holds such views comment on whether one can love ones country through criticism. Can I not want us to be better than this? Is that not allowed??

That?s a better analogy. I still disagree with your analysis of taking the knee/BLM, but that?s a far more appropriate analogy. I don?t think using the Nazi salute is a good idea in this context, in fact there very few areas where it?s appropriate. Don?t bothered if you don?t agree.

Are you just trolling now? You seriously using the Nazi salute as an analogy to taking the knee? Your earlier responses gave me a lot to think about, and then you go full Godwin and I?m back to wondering if you?re just taking the piss? ETA - Malumba makes very good points, but I personally don?t have a lot of sympathy for people who don?t like mixed-race adverts etc. There?s a point at which ?seeing the other persons point of view? becomes enabling of nasty attitudes. The line between ignorance and racism does exist, but it?s a porous one.

For absolute clarity - yes, of course anyone is free to disagree with a given form of protest on a given subject. I?m not disagreeing with that, don?t get me started on people who wear yellow stars to anti-lockdown marches. What I *am* saying is that I think conflation of taking the knee with Marxism is laughably, obviously rubbish, and that I can?t for the life of me think why anyone has a problem with a relatively low-key form of protest such as this. It speaks volumes to me.

TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > j.a. Wrote > hmmm...not really. You're presenting some of your > viewpoints as very much fait accompli (i.e. > there's plenty of people who dont agree that > criticism of Meghan is racially motivated, Im one > of them). Then that?s something we fundamentally disagree about. > > I said earlier in this thread that the core of the > problem here on the taking the knee is that > different people have different views about what > it represents. You've made clear in your comments > that for you its just an anti-racist gesture. ?Just? an anti-racist gesture? While I?m very happy to debate, I object vociferously to passive-aggressive language like that. For > others it would seem that its not....or at least > it means a little more than just that. > No. Again, this may be a fundamental disagreement. I believe, without reservation, that those who see it as os kind of political, Marxist statement are either A) Racists using it as an excuse. B) Being taken in by culture war folk who want to dilute the anti-racist nature or C) Happy to believe it because it fits their personal narrative. > If people are free to have agency to decide how > they want to protest/gesture, then other people > are free to have agency to disagree with the form > of protest without necessarily being branded as > racist. No one, no matter what colour they are, > has absolute say on how to deal with these issues. This is a laudable sentiment with which I agree in principle (and mostly in practice) but unfortunately falls down as soon as it leaves the house and enters the real world *with regards to the taking the knee issue* (please note emphasis, post edited to make this part clear). I would fully agree that there are groups of people who throw accusations of racism around far too easily, but I don?t believe it?s as wide spread as GMB news et al would have us think. I *do believe* that there?s still a lot more racism around than many people want to admit, and I think smearing extremely well paid footballers who are clearly not political commissars with accusations of Marxism is an easy, cheap and lazy way to rile up a front in the culture war that seems to be so prevalent. I genuinely don?t understand why people have a problem with an anti-racist gesture. There?s no good reason for opposing it. As much as you may hope that the people who boo footballers for taking the knee are doing it for well thought out reasons, I suspect we (once again) fundamentally disagree. I suppose this comes down to our views of modern UK. I simply don?t think it?s as progressive as you believe. As people are no doubt tired of me saying, the idea that because we?re not openly abusing non-whites in the street as much as we used to doesn?t mean racism has gone away. I?m not sure what people find so hard to understand about that.

TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------ > im quite disheartened that you would think > that...of course its subjective so is your > preogative. > > but....If we take out the ~15% of minority ethnic > in the population (as I assume you think its only > white people that are the peoblem), and then take > out children under 10 (I know people are trying to > raise anti-racist babies, but for the most part I > would think young kids are okay)...so that makes > the figure closer to 40%........so you think that > 40% of the population are racists? God I hope > not...i'd like to have a bit more faith in my > neighbours.... A couple of points for consideration. Firstly, you - like the rest of us here - live in London. Metropolitan elitism wokey scum that we apparently are, in these kind of places we tend to have lower levels of racism than outside London, Manchester, Bristol etc etc. Step outside those parts of the world and things get?different. Your immediate neighbours probably aren?t racists, but it?s not hard to find parts of the UK where they still don?t like brown people. Feel free to disagree, but it?s naive to think otherwise. Secondly, racism isn?t just (I know you know this but I?ll say it anyway) yelling abuse at people in the street. One of the things that infuriates me is the declaration by some people that racism is over just because no one chucks the n-word around any more (even though they do). Racism exists on many levels and in many ways. It?s insidious, one of the worst poisons in society. There?s a lot of people who would describe themselves as not racist, but still have opinions on how black people should carry themselves. Again, I point to Millwall fans showing how they?re ok with dictating how people should display anti-racist sentiments. Also, Meghan Markle, ?nuff said.

It?s not really about racism in football specifically, or even in the wider sporting world. It?s a general anti-racist gesture. I think the sentiment behind your suggestion is admirable, FWIW, football still has, for example, a problem with homophobia (can anyone name an out Premier League player? Statistically there?s got to be someone). I?m not sure football is anywhere near being able to call itself tolerant. I suppose the argument is all that matters is what you do on the pitch, but it isn?t really the case.

There?s different levels of racism though. The out-and-out blatant racism that existed up to around the end of the 80?s has thankfully gone, as has the clear bigotry of many workplaces, but people still hold prejudices. Near enough a third of the country having somewhat uncomfortable feelings towards non-whites? Yeah, I got no trouble believing it. It comes down, I guess, to how you classify racism. And that?s generally quite a subjective view. It shouldn?t be but it is.

Anyone who genuinely thinks highly paid footballers are somehow closet Marxists has been taken in by the culture war f?ckers who are whipping up conflation of taking the knee with an extremist political view. Sorry, but it?s clearly an anti-racist action. Marxism? Really? If someone wants believe that it?s because they *want to believe that.* It does not take much brain power to see that these guys are not trying to bring about defunding of the police and the abolition of property. I thought that bit where Millwall fans booed those taking the knee one day and applauded linking arms and holding up a banner the next. Right, I see. So you can make an anti-racist gesture provided you do it in a manner that other people are comfortable with? Ok then. Let?s be sure to get the permission of a lot of white folks as to how they?re happy for black people to protest. Taking the knee has f? all to do with Marxism, very little really to do with BLM, and is simply a way of people showing that they?ve frankly had enough of systemic and structural racism. Of which there is still a lot about.

This is the thing, blaming other people is always an easier path. I was hoping (hey, even Rees-Mogg alluded to it) that there would be less of the ?it?s all Europe?s fault!? whining (fictional Ergonomics Directive anyone?), but alas no. This is why populism is essentially terrible; it stops people taking responsibility for themselves.

keano77 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Sephiroth Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > "For all the preparation, paragraphs coloured > in > > with highlighter pens etc the EU is now > > jeopardising the peace process. " > > > > This is a really dumb statement amongst many > dumb > > statements - Brexit meant this, and we told > you. > > You wouldn't listen then and you won't now. EU > > hasn't forced UK to make any of the decisions > it > > has - UK has done that in full knowledge of > what > > it means. > > > > Own > > Your > > Shit > > > > FFS > > > (Munching on a Cumberland sausage sandwich > slathered in Coleman?s English mustard) Keano dude, either engage in debate or be a juvenile troll. It?s up to you, I really don?t care which, but pick one and stick with it. Your whole ?now I?m serious, now I?m joking? schtick long since became tiresome.

keano77 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Yes, but at the risk of upsetting anyone else ... > > For all the preparation, paragraphs coloured in > with highlighter pens etc the EU is now > jeopardising the peace process. > > Staged photographs can be deceptive. Seriously?! Really? It?s *ALL* the EU?s fault? You think absolutely none of this is down to the UK govt in any way, shape or form? Ok then. Not much more to say really.