j.a.

The NIP is part of the WA. If it?s unacceptable now, why was nobody mentioning it back then? Possibly because they figured to shove the whole thing through (IDS telling the HoC not to waste time reading it) and change it later? Why would they agree to a deal that contained something bad? They seemed pretty happy about it at the time, then suddenly?

> > If you want actual bad faith or as is often the > case, downright lies, look no further than the > British PM telling a group of NI business people > that there would be no border down the Irish Sea. > Where's your outrage at that? Not my problem > Dude, seriously? You can?t see where that makes you look like you don?t give a f? about N Ireland? In which case I refer you to the latest declaration of Julia Hartley Brewer. Seriously, if you say the whole NI thing isn?t your problem, then I don?t see how you can contort that into caring about when happens there, but hey, you do you? The EU signed the deal and made it an International Treaty. They see the damage their interpretation and implementation of the rules is causing. Question: what are they going to do to minimise the difficulties? Again, I?m not quite clear as to why this is exclusively the fault of the EU, but I suspect I never will be, seeing as there were two parties signatory to the deal and I reckon that means both sides need to accept their share of responsibility. All I see here is Leavers claiming it?s entirely the EU?s fault, for (checks notes) sticking to the legal text of the thing. Again, David Allen Green?check out that link. ? . Im not sure who all these people are you're referring to who trumpeted how amazing the NIP was??...? You don?t remember the entire hierarchy of the Tory party, plus people like, ooooh, Kate Hoey and Nigel Farage, plus The Telegraph, Express, Sun and Mail, all cheerleading for it? You don?t remember poll after poll showing how people just wanted to ?get Brexit done?? Seriously, were you living under a rock last year? Because the Leave community got very firmly behind it. There wasn?t a lot of discussion about it being imperfect (some, not a lot) and generally speaking it was delivered as ?oven ready?. Then the problems started. Because it hadn?t actually been thought through. If the EU is now causing the UK trouble, it?s because the UK *agreed to a deal that lets them do that!*. You had the chance for No Deal. You didn?t take it, despite tremendous public support for it amongst the Brexit-supporting public. Wonder why that was??

keano77 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Yes. They are acting in bad faith in the > interpretation and application of the rules. > Partly to frighten other EU members who are > thinking of leaving (Poland is looking 50/50). > > Maybe. But the point remains that we agreed to the deal. It?s a bad negotiation team that later claims to be surprised by something the other side is doing that is within the *legal boundaries*. https://davidallengreen.com/2021/06/beware-lord-frosts-legal-purism-line-for-it-means-a-disregard-for-the-rule-of-law-and-is-strategically-unwise/ We agreed to this. We had a chance to go for No Deal, we didn?t. As much as the editor of the Telegraph may huff and puff, we agreed to this. Also, if you want to talk about bad faith, remember we threatened to break the law ?in a very specific way?. Stones and glass houses comes to mind. > > Mate, so many Leave bigwigs were *fully behind > > this deal* (do I need to remind you of what IDS > > said?). It?s plain that the said whatever they > > needed to get it over the line, figuring they > > could try and change things later (Micheal Gove > > anyone?). > > You could be right here > > > > This deal was signed up to by UK Gov, and for > you > > to now say it?s the EU?s fault *entirely* is > > utterly rancid. > > Let an Independent inquiry look into how the EU is > applying the deal. What are you frightened of? Got no problem with that. > > > > Maybe the Protocol does need to be altered, but > I > > have no idea how you do that. Your flippant > remark > > regarding Irish Unification would run foul of > > Poots and co. > > Agreed. > > > > Like many Leavers, you seem insistent on > blaming > > the EU for *everything*. It?s pretty sad to > see. > > Not everything. There are many positives to the EU > when they are not threatening and trying to > blackmail the UK into submission. We?ve even > allowed them to have an ambassador although the EU > doesn?t qualify. What I mean is that I cannot see how you blame the EU *entirely* for issues surrounding the Protocol. We literally agreed to it. No one held a gun to our head, this isn?t the Opium Wars, we could?ve walked away for No Deal. The Conservative Party was fully behind it, as was the Leave-supporting press. Fully. To turn around now and claim we?ve been had, duped, bullied, whatever, looks like we didn?t read it properly at best (paging Ian Duncan Smith) or didn?t understand it at worst (paging Boris Johnson). Or maybe we just thought we?d somehow be able to wriggle out of it?? If so, that?s some serious can-kicking.

TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Remainers: "You cant change anything about the > NIP, its what was signed up to." > > Also Remainers: "We should change absolutely > everything and rejoin the single market" Not all Remainers. We?re not a homogenous bloc (and neither are Leavers) as I think you?d agree. There?s extremes and echo chambers on all sides of every debate.

keano77 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > On a serious note. The protocol isn?t working. The > problem appears to be the way the EU is > interpreting and applying the rules. > > Peter Lilley, now Lord Lilley, was on Newsnight > recently and said something to the effect that > more checks were being carried out at NI ports > than the whole of Europe for imports from the rest > of the world. Now I don?t know if this is a fact > and I might have misheard him correctly. > > Now, it is of the utmost importance that the GFA > be protected. I would propose that instead of all > the threats coming from the EU an independent > International body and journalists monitor exactly > what EU officials are doing at NI ports and > produce a report. > > The world can then make its mind up whether the EU > is taking the p@ss and just squawking for the sake > of it or whether it is fully justified in > confiscating lorry drivers? ham sandwiches. Do you genuinely believe that even after the NIC was campaigned on by Conservatives, supported by Leave, and passed by a democratic Parliament, that somehow - somehow - it?s *still* the fault of the EU? Mate, so many Leave bigwigs were *fully behind this deal* (do I need to remind you of what IDS said?). It?s plain that the said whatever they needed to get it over the line, figuring they could try and change things later (Micheal Gove anyone?). This deal was signed up to by UK Gov, and for you to now say it?s the EU?s fault *entirely* is utterly rancid. Maybe the Protocol does need to be altered, but I have no idea how you do that. Your flippant remark regarding Irish Unification would run foul of Poots and co. Like many Leavers, you seem insistent on blaming the EU for *everything*. It?s pretty sad to see.

???? Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > j.a. Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > ???? Wrote: > > > Bizarre, but I'll ignore your lack of civility as > I'm really not interested in having and argument > I'm not looking for with someone I don't know on > the internet. Have a good day. So much cognitive dissonance...so much...

TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > Unfort for Labour this is the age-old problem with > much of the left....they have 'good' and 'right' > on their side, so they are never wrong, its the > voters who are wrong...over and over again > apparently..... > > > To be fair thought the statement from the Labour > party this morning did seem to acknowledge they > need to change. I wont hold my breath though. Labour?s in probably the worst trouble it?s ever known. I?d caution that Twitter is not real life, and all those ?haters? that Quids seems to think make up the entirety of left-wingers in this country are more likely just the ones that shout loudest from the safety of their keyboard. A lot of more sensible people, I suspect, can see it for what it is. And that?s, as has been stated repeatedly up-thread, a colossal inability of the ?left? to realise that principles without power mean nothing in politics. They still don?t understand why Corbyn was reviled in the Red Wall, and until they get that - and the fact that screaming at each other like a bunch of irate sixth formers does not a coherent strategy make - they?ll be doomed to the wilderness. I voted for Khan partly for personal reasons that I?m not going into on here, but also because I don?t think Bailey is up to the job. Binface got second preference (because I want Fox to get less votes than a man with a bin on his head) but everything else was Green. Labour need to get their head together or this?ll be a one-party state.

(Deleted cos life?s too short)

hammerman Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I would love to discuss but these last three pages > seem to have a majority view by three or four > posters so goodnight! What a marvellous bit of passive-aggressive nonsense.

Amazing how many people think QT is just a biased forum for attacking the govt. As BB says, this is what happens when you?re in govt; people will challenge you. Or would you prefer that no one is ever allowed to question the govt of the day? Do you think that?s healthy?

malumbu Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > > That's not to say that most of the population are > racists, but we are a conservative nation and most > are not that bothered about politics. That is a > statement of fact not patronising the masses. This is very true.

Examples of where the Tory party might, just might, be being a bunch of next Tuesdays... Windrush. Being ok with residents being forced to pay huge sums for proper cladding, when the builders did the original shoddy job. Not-too-subtly telling cultural institutions to fall in line with the govt position on history or risk having their funding cut - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/922293/22-09-20_Letter_to_DCMS_ALBs.docx Some extremely dodgy issues concerning PPE contracts. So yeah, Labour and the left in general have some problems, the same ones they?ve always had because they don?t learn. But I don?t think the Tory party are exactly beyond reproach. If the left could work out how to be as organised as the right, Johnson would be in a lot more trouble than he is. As is so often the case in life, an idiot does well because someone else has been even more of an idiot.

???? Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I see the good people of the left are still stuck > on the at best patronising view ?it?s the > uneducated plebs that believe everything they read > ? line, a worse view, which you see all over > social media is ? they're thick racists who don?t > deserve the vote? These and similar lines is why > Labour hasn?t got a chance for years, it?s what > the majority of their younger activists think too. If that?s your interpretation of what?s been said on this thread, then I have no idea what to say to you. There?s a lot of people who fit your description, (and there?s a lot of people in the Tory party who are unpleasant for different reasons), but all I see here is folk who understand the problems Labour has and the difficulty that left has (once again) gotten itself into. YMMV, I guess.

As Alan said, we knew ahead of time what the rules on shellfish are. Certain sections of the media chose to present this as the EU being difficult. That was a lie by the media. The situation in Jersey is different; here it would seem this is one of those post-Brexit things that needs to be worked out. I?m sure the sending of ?gunboats? and the timing of the elections is entirely coincidental.

Also this is interesting.

And no, I?ve got not idea what Labour can do to cut through right now. The political landscape is undergoing the same upheaval that ushered in Thatcher. Certainly Labour - like the Dems in America - face an unfair playing field, but that can?t be an excuse. It is what it is. Personally I?ve been loudly arguing for Proportional Representation and mandatory covering since the 90?s and my mates are fed up of hearing it. But I think then at least we would have real representation, and parties would be forced to work together.

They want change. They?ve been ignored politically for decades now. The Tories didn?t care about them, Labour took them for granted. So when Brexit came along, suddenly here was a chance to actually be heard. Now we know that about 50% of the Leave vote was affluent Southern England, but the rest was these guys, who listened when years and years of anti-EU sentiment blamed other people for *problems that we made ourselves* (I think it?s really important to remember that), and then the Leave campaign itself lied it?s arse off. And they don?t care that Leave lied. At the heart of this is a desire for dignity and respect. And in that they?re right. As Clinton?s campaign said in 1992, it?s the economy, stupid. Give them jobs, give them prospects, give them everything that we down here take for granted (though now there?s a debate to be had about the gig economy, zero-hours contracts, London rent etc etc), and they?re gonna be less concerned about immigrants, frankly. But tell them that same old story, that ?foreigners? are responsible, and it?s amazing how easily that goes down if they look around and see some other sod has eaten all the pig. This is a great read on the subject - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brexitland-Identity-Diversity-Reshaping-Politics/dp/1108461905

First things first, the vote won?t be different. This seat would have gone blue if the BXP hadn?t run - Tice polled 10,000 votes and the majority was 7,000. The writing was on the wall ever since the by-election was announced. In more general terms, Labour are screwed. We?re looking at ten years of Tory rule *with no effective opposition* (that?s the important point IMO) and Labour did it to themselves. I say this as dyed-in-the-wool Labour supporter, but they infuriate me. The Labour Party has had some form of infighting since the mid-30?s, but in the last ten years it?s like they?ve decided that they?d all rather be ?pure? Labour than agree to work with others who might hold *slightly* different views on stuff - it?s the People?s Front Of Judea all over again, and they can?t see it. They got the seven bells kicked out of them by Tufton St over anti-semitism, and have utterly failed to understand how the North and Midlands feel. Like, utterly. I mean, I?m a born and raised metropolitan elitist snob (apparently), and even I can see those towns have a point. Hartlepool is a perfect example - it?s been ignored by parties of both sides for decades, and then Brexit came along and they had a chance to actually make a difference (sorry Cat, but Brexit is a large part of all this), and Labour haven?t worked it out. I despair at people who accuse others of being Blairites, and not ?true Labour?. I work with a number of young left-wingers who regularly espouse this view while thinking that Corbyn is still the Messiah (again, Monty Python were way ahead of their time here), and I always remind them - BLAIR WON THREE ELECTION ON THE F?ING TROT, and you still insist that you know better than him. But no. Kerry-Anne Mendoza and the rest of them think a good use of their time is to destabilise the only chance we have to hold the govt to account and continually harp on about how Corbyn would currently be saving humanity if only the media and filthy not-proper-left wingers hadn?t undermined him. I mean FFS, their myopic stupidity is breathtaking, and their insistence that traditional Labour voters haven?t properly thought things through demonstrates exactly *why* the Red Wall fell, and the next brick will go on Thursday. Aaaaach, it?s not worth it. Voters don?t care that Boris is a lying next Tuesday, they don?t care that he genuinely isn?t up to the job. It?s not his brains, it?s not his skill, it?s his ability to make people feel he?s just like them. He cuts through because he?s a bluffer, a chancer, a liar, and they still don?t care. They just don?t. He ?gets Brexit done?. A vote for him sticks it to people they don?t like. And they genuinely don?t feel that Labour means anything to them any more. For all his talk about levelling up, I?m not convinced it?ll happen. I sincerely hope it does, because for all by terrible liberal credentials in which I apparently understand nothing about the outside world (which is a different conversation and not one I will concede ground on anywhere near so readily), I really wish that those towns would get the investment they need. But then I look and the fishing industry (100% Leave vote, by the way) and somehow I?m not optimistic. If anyone needs help it?s those coastal towns, and yet... When you have people like Matt Hancock and Nadine Dorries on your corner, I?m sceptical. Not exactly a nation of talents, and Gove is just biding his time. He?ll cut Boris down eventually. And yet, against all this , Labour is still getting trounced. Boris, who was very close to quitting six months ago, has found a fresh wind and Starmer can?t quite land a blow. Covid is covering up the worst of the economic drama thus far from Brexit, and the vaccine has been a massive success. Labour are in the wilderness for a while, and will be until they figure out that the Tories have them round their little finger.

Given the ?simplism? (h/t who has written far more eloquently on the subject than I can) so often found in the Brexit arguments, I?d say simplistic analysis will be about par for the course where Scottish independence is concerned. Personal view, people involved should learn from the Brexit campaign and subsequent utter f?-ups wherein no one is getting what they want....but they probably won?t.

TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > > "The forecasts of unmitigated gloom, however, have > been wrong and deceitful. When economists failed > to predict the global financial crisis, they did > not so out of malice or political bias. But their > Brexit forecasts were not an innocent mistake - > nor will they be remembered as such" While I would say most of that post is reasonable, this paragraph is frankly bunk. Given how much of the Leave argument was predicated on the economic benefit, I feel this is very much the pot calling the kettle black, to say nothing of someone who thinks the 2008 crash was not the result of malice or political bias. Pur-leeeeeasse beeyatch... Neither side acquitted itself beyond reproach during the campaign, and one of Leave?s clear proclamations was how much better off our economy would be and they wouldn?t hear any dispute on the matter. If you want to use the words ?wrong and deceitful?, we?ll be here until next week. There?s quite a lot of it going around.

Cat, given that you and I might possibly agree on a lot more than you think we do, you've managed to miss the point spectacularly. I won't be posting again here as I'm involved in several conversations about the report IRL and there's only so much I can handle - which is my way of saying that it's not you, it's my mother-in-law and work colleagues etc etc. However, once again you've punched back hard and I suspect undermined your arguments. Plus ca change... Point I will chuck out there though on my way out the room... When you mention the progressive left I'd say you actually mean (though may not realise it) the hard left. I'd gently suggest that you remember Twatter/social media in general isn't real life, not even close, and most of the progressive left ddoes not - I suspect (could be wrong of course) subscribe to critical race theory; in fact I reckon most people think it's bollox - I certainly do. I don't think it's about people being 'perennial victims', or the rest of us being 'oppressors', but rather that just because racism isn't as bad as it used to be, or that the UK is better than other places it doesn't mean the problem has gone away. You know this of course, you know racism is still, unfortunately, a thing. How do we start to dig down into the specific issues that minority communities face - which may very well not be caused by racism - without first making Herculean efforts to handle that? I'm probably not making much sense I and apologise for that. I guess my salient point is that less than sixty years ago an MP won election to Parliament on the slogan "If You Want A N***** For A Neighbour Vote Labour" There are people alive who voted for him and raised their kids using the same ethics and morals that allowed them to do so. We haven't come as far as we think, we're kidding ourselves if we think we have. The Race Relations Acts and the rest of it were just the beginning and frankly that was the easy part, now it's down into the detail of how we as individuals handle it in day to day life. I mean for f's sake, they just kicked a copper out for being an actual Nazi - was he a one-off or does the problem go deeper (I think it probably does). We're so far from solving this issue - just look at other parts of the world (cough cough Americe) to see how divisive race still is, and I think the best thing we can all do right now is agree that the problem still exists. After that we can can hopefully have debates about the way to resolve it, but frankly Sewells report (which I admit I've only skimmed) seems a bit like it was written as a front in the culture war. It's a horrendously complex issue. It drives me to despair. Social media is probably the worst place to debate it. Feel free to PM me if you want to shout at me or something, but I'll duck out of this thread now.

Yeah, what KK and the rest said. Cat, you don't do yourself any favours. You come here looking for reasoned debate, I genuinely believe that, but you slip into a provocative style too easily. I get it, it's the internet, people generally come online looking to espouse and validate their views and I imagine the number of people who change their mind because of a chatroom/FB/Twatter discussion each day can be counted on the fingers of one hand. I'm ever quite sure what you're trying to achieve; I mean, you claim, to be seeking debate but you seem to really get fired up when people disagree with you, so I wonder if the drama kind of does it for you a little bit. You remind me of someone who isn't actually looking for a discussion, but wants to find someone with an opposing point of view and then beat them in an argument. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I've never been entirely convinced by your "I'm just trying to debate" schtick; you're pretty quick to punch back, and as i say I wonder if that's partly the point of it. Also, as KK says, some of your personal views seem to flirt with a world-view that I have to say I've encountered in Australians many times (not all Australians, obvs), and I've never been entirely happy with. For example, I'd say Australia doesn't have a lot to teach the world about race relations (I've been there several times and have family there, before you ask, and a guy in Vic Market nearly got punched for calling my mixed-race Caribbean wife a paki to her face which was not an isolated incident). To be clear I'm not calling you a racist, just saying that Australians in general have not been as aware of racial issues as they think they are (and obvs fully aware that generalisations are a minefield but also have some basis in fact). I'm sure you're lovely though. (ETA the caveat about generalisations)

HL/DD, you're really not as clever as you think you are. This is - in the grand scheme of things - a tiny local forum (for local people, we'll have no trouble here). I'm not sure what you get out of running a sock but it's probably akin to Walter Mitty types. Anyhoo....

Dulwich Dyson Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > @diable rouge > > Paranoid or what? DB is correct though. Not sure why you?d sock puppet you?re own thread but whatever makes you happy.

Dulwich Dyson Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > @diable rouge > > Paranoid or what? DB is correct though. Not sure why you?d sock puppet you?re own thread but whatever makes you happy.