Baby sleep just gets worse!

[lard]

How much sleep does he get in the day?

How much does he eat before he goes to bed?

Being awake constantly when not ill is either too much sleep in the day, too little/wrong type of food to get through the night, or a routine of waking up and being unable to get back to sleep by themselves.

At 11 months, a maximum of 2hours sleep in the day (preferably at the same time every day), a carbier (eg. bottle and porridge) evening meal, and leaving them for longer when they wake up before going to them to give them chance to drop off. Over time this will improve things. All this cohabiting breastfeeding 5 times a night etc is fine if you can live with it, but my opinion is that we don't live the same type of life like we used to. Work/other things now get in the way. Your sleep is important, so some things have got to change to accommodate your needs too. What is right for one person isn't right for another.

Differing opinions as ever in the space of 10 posts, take your pick on what you think is right.

Tea/sympathy etc too. :)

[snowboarder]

Lard- Daytime sleep - 2 or 3 naps - total usually about 1.5-2 hrs. There's NO WAY he could have just one nap - but when it's three it is annoying.

Supper - well I try to get him to eat as much as poss!! But he won't eat porridge (or anything 'sloppy' that need to eat really with a spoon) and won't take a bottle! So it's usually something with toast, smoothie or yoghurt and some fruit. And then breastfeed before bed....so the bad nights are probably due to the last of your reasons!!

Made husband read this last night and he got up with babySB this morning and I got a lie in UNTIL 8AM!!

[Ko]

oh sb, poor you! when little sb grows up, he won't be able to walk around ED without all us mums saying to him "do you remember how many times a night you got your poor mum up"! you are such a good mum coping with all this xxx

i've read that all babies wake up a number of times during the night, but its whether they know how to get themsleves back to sleep. so some won't go back to sleep without being held / rocked / patted / fed / dummy / etc. you probably already know this though. i've read you need to break the bad habit but that's not easy. i do know people who have tried the crying down solution and it has worked in 2 nights (and their 1 year old was up about 3 times a night before that). someone else on here suggested a while ago to feed stodgy foods for dinner, eg mashed potato, bread, etc.

does your little one take a bottle? could you try a bottle of formula before bedtime and see if that satisfies him for longer? also using a bottle (expressed or formula) would let you see how much he is actually drinking at night. i would hazard a guess that it is the comfort of sucking that he wants to get back to sleep, but you probably already know that! have you tried a dummy? sorry, people have probably already suggested most of these things before. i guess its good to just be able to talk about it so that you can get some support. wish i could do more!

xxx

[snowboarder]

ko - I know - he can't seem to get back to sleep by himself - but how to teach him?!? He's tricky - picky about what will eat, won't take a bottle, bit big for a dummy I think and anyway constantly sucks his thumb (another 'baddie'!!). On the plus side he's very energetic, speed crawls around the house in hot pursuit of our cats, nearly walking and getting more fun by day...it's just nights that are bad!

[Fuschia]

SB: Feeding a baby to sleep is so natural and what we are designed to do as mammals. I think the whole parenting industry has a lot to answer for with all the stuff about "Creating good habits" from day 1, with sleeping through the night as the holy grail. Responding to little SB and settling him whatever way works best isn't wrong at all. The time might have come where the particular balance needs to swing back to YOu and your needs, rather than continue with the all night milkbar long term.. but don't let anyone make you feel you have done something WRONG. Little SB is behaving perfectly normally.. and it never crosses his little mind that you have any other purpose on this planet but to always be there for him, ready to meet his every need. Maybe the time now has come for him to begin to appreciate that's not quite true... but what a lovely start in life for him!

[Fuschia]

One thing to try is to create some other sleep associations, bring a softtoy or a blanket in to your sleeptime bf snuggle so he gets used to it and eventually will see it as a sign its bedtime. Also try the "Pantley pulloff" with a phrase.. i say Roll over now, snuggle down, night nights time, and 9/10 M will let go, roll over and go to sleep. It often works when she wakes in the night and she will go right back off. Introducing a special stroke or pat as he drops off can be helpful too, again it can later standalone.. chose something that doesnt make your wrist ache though!!

http://www.pregnancy.org/article/when-your-baby-wakes-frequently-feed-pantley-pull

[helena handbasket]

Wow, I had to laugh while I read that Fuschia because it sounds lovely, and maybe a more laid back baby would go for that, but my son was way beyond "night night now roll over"! Baby SB does not sound like that baby either.

I think that unless you have really lived the full impact of these determined little chaps it is possibly hard to imagine how resistant they are to such simple solutions? I too started out with the Pantley book, and it took me months to realize that it wasn't my crap mothering that was the problem but well intended advice meant for children that were very unlike my son. Strong willed children are no match for conventional parenting wisdom...... they eat it up and spit it out. Once I really understood my son and his personality I was able to ignore advice (and judgement for that matter) and start looking at parenting guides written specifically for "strong willed" or "spirited" children. I recently spotted a great book in the library by The Dr. Sears family........ I'm generally not a fan but they have a book that I think might be called Raising Your High Needs Baby, which is just another name for demanding. They actually really seem to understand these little guys and I thought the advice was reasonable. And since they are the royalty of attachment parenting it might be up your alley snowboarder. I would seriously give it a go, I really found myself wishing I had spotted it when my son was a baby. I think you will be relieved to see someone "get" your baby, I sure was.

My son is still incredibly strong willed, always will be, and there are days where it's exhausting and you just wish they could be a little bit easier like everyone else's kid. BUT, historically spirited babies have turned into presidents and masters of industry. Their determination is their gift. They are wonderful children....... if you can survive them! Nobody can make me laugh the way my "larger than life" three year old can.

[Fuschia]

Helena, baby no 1 was incredibly high need.. still is.. never napped...fed every hour at night till he was 2+

The baby who will now roll over when I say got to sleep is actually just as spirited as child no 1... but she is quite a "GOOD" sleeper, when she was small she would grumble herself off to sleep holding a muslin and I guess if she had been put to sleep in a cot away from the temptation of mummy milk she would be a 7-7am sleeper just as some seem to be.. certainly, she is very easy to settle for a nap... always has 2hours at lunchtime... and scampers eagerly off to bed at 7pm. But when she's awake she's a little madam. She eats very well too.

The other twin is the more subdued, laid back one, but buy does he get cross if I don't jump to it in the night with milk. He hates covers on him too.. he sits up and bellows "mum-eh! Help meh!" And at the moment, since having pneumonia, he is on some sort of exctreme faddy diet (fruit and breastmilk!)

Elizabeth Pantley had high need children too. You might be surprised at the rollover snuggle down thing as I had some success with that with DS1 too. I have found with mine that sometimes they are virtually sucking in their sleep, and you need a way to get them to stop, without them getting cross... having some verbal cue seems to help them disengage without waking up too much, I have found.

[Fuschia]

PS I have all the high need spirited baby books!!

[hanstands]

What constitutes a high-need baby? Not sure I have one but I do know he really doesn't sleep well!! Which high needs baby books would you recommend Fuschia, just incase?? Did you feel any better in the day SB after your lie-in??

[womanofdulwich]

oh that is so true- mine all over - no one will ever knock him around. he is 14 i no longer worry about him at all.however the first 5 years we only went to stay on holiday with family as i could not take him any where. now he is so mature and everyone loves him.. he is a natural leader- but we still have big run ins....................

[crystal7]

Lots of sympathy to you Snowboarder.

E was 1 last week and has never slept through the night. I have however started to wean her off the all night milk bar! This is mainly because I really want her to eat more in the day as her weight is so low. She used to wake up at 10, 1 and 4 every night so I sent OH in at 10 and he managed to settle her surprisingly quickly. We're now down to 1 night feed and hopefully wont be doing that forever, need to gather the energy to night wean completely! BUT guess what I've ended up doing instead of settling her with milk-?! Yep she comes into our bed at around 2am every morning. I went back to work last month and don't have the energy to be shushing and patting for hours when we have to be up had breakfast and out of the house by 7.30 am!

So rubbish advice really but will keep you posted if I ever crack it!

[Smiler]

Crystal 7, have been there! Argh.

[lard]

helena handbasket Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Wow, I had to laugh while I read that Fuschia

> because it sounds lovely, and maybe a more laid

> back baby would go for that, but my son was way

> beyond "night night now roll over"! Baby SB does

> not sound like that baby either.

>

> I think that unless you have really lived the full

> impact of these determined little chaps it is

> possibly hard to imagine how resistant they are to

> such simple solutions? I too started out with the

> Pantley book, and it took me months to realize

> that it wasn't my crap mothering that was the

> problem but well intended advice meant for

> children that were very unlike my son. Strong

> willed children are no match for conventional

> parenting wisdom...... they eat it up and spit it

> out. Once I really understood my son and his

> personality I was able to ignore advice (and

> judgement for that matter) and start looking at

> parenting guides written specifically for "strong

> willed" or "spirited" children. I recently

> spotted a great book in the library by The Dr.

> Sears family........ I'm generally not a fan but

> they have a book that I think might be called

> Raising Your High Needs Baby, which is just

> another name for demanding. They actually really

> seem to understand these little guys and I thought

> the advice was reasonable. And since they are the

> royalty of attachment parenting it might be up

> your alley snowboarder. I would seriously give it

> a go, I really found myself wishing I had spotted

> it when my son was a baby. I think you will be

> relieved to see someone "get" your baby, I sure

> was.

>

> My son is still incredibly strong willed, always

> will be, and there are days where it's exhausting

> and you just wish they could be a little bit

> easier like everyone else's kid. BUT,

> historically spirited babies have turned into

> presidents and masters of industry. Their

> determination is their gift. They are wonderful

> children....... if you can survive them! Nobody

> can make me laugh the way my "larger than life"

> three year old can.

So what did these parenting guides for strong willed babies say to do to help them sleep through the night?

[lard]

Snowboarder...my well intended advice: :)

3 naps seems a lot. I guess it is just a vicious circle as he hasn't slept great in the night, so then is tired in the day. Just prod him on his 3rd nap to keep him awake :-)

I would even work on limiting the 2nd nap (ie not the big lunchtime sleep) to 15mins max. ie start at 30 mins then work backwards. The idea is to get him used to sleeping for longer periods, by limiting the other periods of napping.

It sounds as if everytime he wakes up, he wakes up, rather than dropping off again by himself. In the day and then also at night.

Same with the food, limit snacks etc in the afternoon so that he is hungry in the evening, so that he gets used to having a bellyful. If he already eats well in the evening , then my only other advice is just leaving him for longer, starting off on the lunchtime nap. Babies can learn to be content in their cot.

In my opinion, all babies can be taught behaviour by slightly amending routine each day. Even strong willed ones. They are no different to any other intelligent animal. It isn't cruel by manipulating their behaviour over time to suit your life. In the way you can't teach a dog to walk on lead in a day, nor can going from napping to sleeping be done in a day. Over time though it can change.