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SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> I'm not especially worried about a killer Atila

>

> I would worry about society in general if we

> regressed from the current justice system back to

> a time when mob-rule, err... ruled the land

> however. You would be going some to show that

> society wasn't much more violent back in dem days

>

> So given the 2 options, I'll stick with the

> current rule of law. That doesn't put me on the

> side of killers thangyouvermuch

Sean, I wasn't suggesting that you were. Getting rid of this shite bag is hardly mob rule and keeping him banged up in the vain hope that he will of value of society is a lost cause. You can't polish a turd. As for a civilised society, are you talking about our society?? I would argue that neither our society or the human race is no more civilsed now than it was a hundred years ago. Look at the atrocities committed in Vietnam, Serbia, Palestine, South Africa, Rwanda, Cambodia, Russia, Iran, Iraq, Northern Ireland, America, Central & Southern America, Poland and so on ad infinitum. Hardly examples of civilised society. As for rule of law, I gave up on the legal system years ago and see it as an anarchic out moded system ruled by dusty old men with a tenuos grasp on reality. Most of the statutes we have are centuries old with about as much relevance as a full suit of armour.

Bit of a catch all rant there Atila isn't it?


You can't polish a turd - well that doesn't work as metaphor does it? Many criminals (including violent ones and killers) can and are rehabilitated


Atrocities commited in the places you mention are not exactly the same as the common-or-garden-variety criminal walking the streets - butif you are asking would I rather walk the streets NOW or would I rather walk the streets before dusty old men took charge then not only count me as a NOW person but I would question the sanity of anyone who choses otherwise. Have people rad no history - do you know just how mean these mean streets used to be?


And as you are someone who is a big fan of Wenger - whose articulate and cool intelligence have brought so much to the commoner's game - which do you think he would prefer? Or to think of it differently again.. when those rumours about him started when he arrived, what if somone who believed them took teh law into his own hands and we read in the papers about how some "sick pervert" was beaten to death.. "society is better off without him"?

Sorry can't agree that this piece of human excrement can or should be given any second chances. His victim didn't get one did he? I realy don't understand why people are so hung up on giving killers like this brain dead vermin a second chance with no thought for the victim. Or do victims have no rights?

Is there no room for repentance or forgiveness in this world?

Pretty bleak world if not.


It always strikes me how the US, the most christian country in the developed world, is so keen on the death sentence and heat up about vengeance and doesn't really get forgiveness. I'm no christian, but JC (John Cleese) had some pretty marvellous ideas about all that malarkey.

I gather allah's pretty big on being merciful too.

but that's what makes the victims the Good Guys - they are desperately unfortunate but they DON'T go around killing people - even (insert latest Atila description of murderer here)


I don't see any lack of sympathy for victims, despite your assertions

I'm surprised to hear you say that.


But say the guy becomes truly remorseful. He's the model prisoner, studies and gets an education.

After parole in 12 years he's released and despite finding it hard, really contributes to society.

He may even go on to save someone else from going down the wrong path.


Sheesh, haven't you guys even watched Shawshank Redemption ;-)


Shouldn't an enlightened society give them the benefit of the doubt?

mockney piers Wrote:

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> Shouldn't an enlightened society give them the

> benefit of the doubt?


I would like to say yes but am inclined to say no in principle. Only if a society has the recourses and inclination to offer rehabilitation and support to people who have wronged it should it do so. But it should not be obliged to do so.

"As for rule of law, I gave up on the legal system years ago and see it as an anarchic out moded system ruled by dusty old men with a tenuos grasp on reality. Most of the statutes we have are centuries old with about as much relevance as a full suit of armour."


There have been more criminal justice acts in the last 30 years than in the previous 300 - whether it's done any good is another matter. The stereotype of lawyers and judges as fusty and out of touch is a convenient fiction for those who prefer trial by tabloid, but it is a fiction. And 12 years minimum does mean minimum, and then on licence and thus liable to recall for the rest of your life.

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm surprised to hear you say that.

>

> But say the guy becomes truly remorseful. He's the

> model prisoner, studies and gets an education.

> After parole in 12 years he's released and despite

> finding it hard, really contributes to society.

> He may even go on to save someone else from going

> down the wrong path.

>

> Sheesh, haven't you guys even watched Shawshank

> Redemption ;-)

>

> Shouldn't an enlightened society give them the

> benefit of the doubt?


Benefit of the doubt, to someone who had removed a tagging device for previous offences hours before he beat a man to death. No, I think not. The fact that he had been wearing a tag tends to suggest some enlightened dick head had tried to give the maggott the benefit of the doubt and some poor bastard pays with their life. Yeah this guy was obviously full to overflowing with remorse for his previous acts of felony. You guys amaze me.

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "As for rule of law, I gave up on the legal system

> years ago and see it as an anarchic out moded

> system ruled by dusty old men with a tenuos grasp

> on reality. Most of the statutes we have are

> centuries old with about as much relevance as a

> full suit of armour."

>

> There have been more criminal justice acts in the

> last 30 years than in the previous 300 - whether

> it's done any good is another matter. The

> stereotype of lawyers and judges as fusty and out

> of touch is a convenient fiction for those who

> prefer trial by tabloid, but it is a fiction. And

> 12 years minimum does mean minimum, and then on

> licence and thus liable to recall for the rest of

> your life.


I worked for 8 years in the legal department of a very large finance company and my direct line manager was the director of legal services who was also a barrister. He was actually only a few years older than me, but his grasp on reality was wafer thin. Reason?? Born with a silverspoon in his gob, lived in a huge house somewhere near Henley on Thames, and he once told me that he felt it would be a good bonding exercise for me and my team, who were earning about ?18k each at the time, to go to Monanco for a Formula One weekend at a cost of, wait for it, ?4k each. Tenuos grasp on reality? Too f**king right.

"I worked for 8 years in the legal department of a very large finance company and my direct line manager was the director of legal services who was also a barrister. He was actually only a few years older than me, but his grasp on reality was wafer thin. Reason?? Born with a silverspoon in his gob, lived in a huge house somewhere near Henley on Thames, and he once told me that he felt it would be a good bonding exercise for me and my team, who were earning about ?18k each at the time, to go to Monanco for a Formula One weekend at a cost of, wait for it, ?4k each. Tenuos grasp on reality? Too f**king right."


This seems a tenuous basis to comment on the criminal justice system.

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "I worked for 8 years in the legal department of a

> very large finance company and my direct line

> manager was the director of legal services who was

> also a barrister. He was actually only a few years

> older than me, but his grasp on reality was wafer

> thin. Reason?? Born with a silverspoon in his gob,

> lived in a huge house somewhere near Henley on

> Thames, and he once told me that he felt it would

> be a good bonding exercise for me and my team, who

> were earning about ?18k each at the time, to go to

> Monanco for a Formula One weekend at a cost of,

> wait for it, ?4k each. Tenuos grasp on reality?

> Too f**king right."

>

> This seems a tenuous basis to comment on the

> criminal justice system.


It is an example of how of touch these arseholes are.

I notice a lot of forumites mention "trial by tabloid". If tabloids report facts as recorded in a court of law, as in the case I highlighted, what is the problem. Or do they not like the idea of tabloids reporting the facts. A fact is fact whether it is reported in a tabloid or a "quality" daily. Such thinking simply shows up the prejudices of those who believe all tabloids report is sensationalist nonsense, which may be true most of the time but not all of the time. This case was reported in all english newspapers so how could it possibly be trial by tabloid for fecks sake.

Ha, ha, DaveR - a friend of mine reads a lot, and he does all his reading sitting on the john. Must tell him about his kindred spirit.


Anyhow - I heard a fascinating interview with Jeffrey Archer on Radio 5 a few days ago. He was alway famously pretty hard line regarding punitive punishments, until, that is he had his two years in Belmarsh. He came out with reformed views. It was a daily living hell. Boredom, drugs and illiteracy. For anyone with a normal lifestyle, he said, it was a complete shock to the system. Something like 60% illiteracy. 80% on drugs, The place was full of addiction, hopelessness, anger, brutality. One guy he spoke to wanted to swap places with him. "It's OK being in here" he said, "if like you, you'll get out to a job, a house, a family and friends. I've got none of them". It brought Archer up short. A year after leaving prison that guy was found dead on a park bench - heroin.

Archer says he cringes now when former colleagues of him talk of prison being an "easy option".

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