I heard the news today, oh boy..

[mockney piers]

hear hare here DC!

[atila the gooner]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm not especially worried about a killer Atila

>

> I would worry about society in general if we

> regressed from the current justice system back to

> a time when mob-rule, err... ruled the land

> however. You would be going some to show that

> society wasn't much more violent back in dem days

>

> So given the 2 options, I'll stick with the

> current rule of law. That doesn't put me on the

> side of killers thangyouvermuch

Sean, I wasn't suggesting that you were. Getting rid of this shite bag is hardly mob rule and keeping him banged up in the vain hope that he will of value of society is a lost cause. You can't polish a turd. As for a civilised society, are you talking about our society?? I would argue that neither our society or the human race is no more civilsed now than it was a hundred years ago. Look at the atrocities committed in Vietnam, Serbia, Palestine, South Africa, Rwanda, Cambodia, Russia, Iran, Iraq, Northern Ireland, America, Central & Southern America, Poland and so on ad infinitum. Hardly examples of civilised society. As for rule of law, I gave up on the legal system years ago and see it as an anarchic out moded system ruled by dusty old men with a tenuos grasp on reality. Most of the statutes we have are centuries old with about as much relevance as a full suit of armour.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Bit of a catch all rant there Atila isn't it?

You can't polish a turd - well that doesn't work as metaphor does it? Many criminals (including violent ones and killers) can and are rehabilitated

Atrocities commited in the places you mention are not exactly the same as the common-or-garden-variety criminal walking the streets - butif you are asking would I rather walk the streets NOW or would I rather walk the streets before dusty old men took charge then not only count me as a NOW person but I would question the sanity of anyone who choses otherwise. Have people rad no history - do you know just how mean these mean streets used to be?

And as you are someone who is a big fan of Wenger - whose articulate and cool intelligence have brought so much to the commoner's game - which do you think he would prefer? Or to think of it differently again.. when those rumours about him started when he arrived, what if somone who believed them took teh law into his own hands and we read in the papers about how some "sick pervert" was beaten to death.. "society is better off without him"?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

You could polish a suit of armour. It might look quite pretty in my banqueting hall.

[atila the gooner]

Sorry can't agree that this piece of human excrement can or should be given any second chances. His victim didn't get one did he? I realy don't understand why people are so hung up on giving killers like this brain dead vermin a second chance with no thought for the victim. Or do victims have no rights?

[mockney piers]

Is there no room for repentance or forgiveness in this world?

Pretty bleak world if not.

It always strikes me how the US, the most christian country in the developed world, is so keen on the death sentence and heat up about vengeance and doesn't really get forgiveness. I'm no christian, but JC (John Cleese) had some pretty marvellous ideas about all that malarkey.

I gather allah's pretty big on being merciful too.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I suspect in this killer's case there probably isn't much room for any of it to be slightly fair to Atila

But it behoves us to at least try IMO

[atila the gooner]

Religion plays no part in my life thankfully, I pity the victim who didn't ask to be killed by a brainless maggot and his family gets precious little by way of justice and sympathy (which in this case is laughable)

[SeanMacGabhann]

but that's what makes the victims the Good Guys - they are desperately unfortunate but they DON'T go around killing people - even (insert latest Atila description of murderer here)

I don't see any lack of sympathy for victims, despite your assertions

[mockney piers]

I'm surprised to hear you say that.

But say the guy becomes truly remorseful. He's the model prisoner, studies and gets an education.

After parole in 12 years he's released and despite finding it hard, really contributes to society.

He may even go on to save someone else from going down the wrong path.

Sheesh, haven't you guys even watched Shawshank Redemption ;-)

Shouldn't an enlightened society give them the benefit of the doubt?

[david_carnell]

"Get busy living, or get busy dying"

*sob*

[Brendan]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> Shouldn't an enlightened society give them the

> benefit of the doubt?

I would like to say yes but am inclined to say no in principle. Only if a society has the recourses and inclination to offer rehabilitation and support to people who have wronged it should it do so. But it should not be obliged to do so.

[Brendan]

The first priority is to protect the innocent from those who transgress. Humanitarian efforts towards the transgressors are a secondary nicety.

'tis my opinion on it.

[mockney piers]

I'll pop your name in that hat then Brendan ;-)

[Brendan]

I am not saying that I wouldn?t like to live in a society where we try to rehabilitate criminals just that I don?t think society is necessarily obligated to.

[DaveR]

"As for rule of law, I gave up on the legal system years ago and see it as an anarchic out moded system ruled by dusty old men with a tenuos grasp on reality. Most of the statutes we have are centuries old with about as much relevance as a full suit of armour."

There have been more criminal justice acts in the last 30 years than in the previous 300 - whether it's done any good is another matter. The stereotype of lawyers and judges as fusty and out of touch is a convenient fiction for those who prefer trial by tabloid, but it is a fiction. And 12 years minimum does mean minimum, and then on licence and thus liable to recall for the rest of your life.

[atila the gooner]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm surprised to hear you say that.

>

> But say the guy becomes truly remorseful. He's the

> model prisoner, studies and gets an education.

> After parole in 12 years he's released and despite

> finding it hard, really contributes to society.

> He may even go on to save someone else from going

> down the wrong path.

>

> Sheesh, haven't you guys even watched Shawshank

> Redemption ;-)

>

> Shouldn't an enlightened society give them the

> benefit of the doubt?

Benefit of the doubt, to someone who had removed a tagging device for previous offences hours before he beat a man to death. No, I think not. The fact that he had been wearing a tag tends to suggest some enlightened dick head had tried to give the maggott the benefit of the doubt and some poor bastard pays with their life. Yeah this guy was obviously full to overflowing with remorse for his previous acts of felony. You guys amaze me.

[atila the gooner]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "As for rule of law, I gave up on the legal system

> years ago and see it as an anarchic out moded

> system ruled by dusty old men with a tenuos grasp

> on reality. Most of the statutes we have are

> centuries old with about as much relevance as a

> full suit of armour."

>

> There have been more criminal justice acts in the

> last 30 years than in the previous 300 - whether

> it's done any good is another matter. The

> stereotype of lawyers and judges as fusty and out

> of touch is a convenient fiction for those who

> prefer trial by tabloid, but it is a fiction. And

> 12 years minimum does mean minimum, and then on

> licence and thus liable to recall for the rest of

> your life.

I worked for 8 years in the legal department of a very large finance company and my direct line manager was the director of legal services who was also a barrister. He was actually only a few years older than me, but his grasp on reality was wafer thin. Reason?? Born with a silverspoon in his gob, lived in a huge house somewhere near Henley on Thames, and he once told me that he felt it would be a good bonding exercise for me and my team, who were earning about ?18k each at the time, to go to Monanco for a Formula One weekend at a cost of, wait for it, ?4k each. Tenuos grasp on reality? Too f**king right.

[mockney piers]

Truth, as ever, stranger than fiction

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23453952-details/Woman+rescued+after+sitting+on+boyfriend%27s+toilet+for+TWO+YEARS/article.do

[david_carnell]

What the....??!!

[DaveR]

"I worked for 8 years in the legal department of a very large finance company and my direct line manager was the director of legal services who was also a barrister. He was actually only a few years older than me, but his grasp on reality was wafer thin. Reason?? Born with a silverspoon in his gob, lived in a huge house somewhere near Henley on Thames, and he once told me that he felt it would be a good bonding exercise for me and my team, who were earning about ?18k each at the time, to go to Monanco for a Formula One weekend at a cost of, wait for it, ?4k each. Tenuos grasp on reality? Too f**king right."

This seems a tenuous basis to comment on the criminal justice system.

[DaveR]

"Truth, as ever, stranger than fiction"

You know how it is - you haven't had a chance to read the paper, you get properly settled in the 'smallest room', then you notice that novel you never finished.....

[atila the gooner]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "I worked for 8 years in the legal department of a

> very large finance company and my direct line

> manager was the director of legal services who was

> also a barrister. He was actually only a few years

> older than me, but his grasp on reality was wafer

> thin. Reason?? Born with a silverspoon in his gob,

> lived in a huge house somewhere near Henley on

> Thames, and he once told me that he felt it would

> be a good bonding exercise for me and my team, who

> were earning about ?18k each at the time, to go to

> Monanco for a Formula One weekend at a cost of,

> wait for it, ?4k each. Tenuos grasp on reality?

> Too f**king right."

>

> This seems a tenuous basis to comment on the

> criminal justice system.

It is an example of how of touch these arseholes are.

[atila the gooner]

I notice a lot of forumites mention "trial by tabloid". If tabloids report facts as recorded in a court of law, as in the case I highlighted, what is the problem. Or do they not like the idea of tabloids reporting the facts. A fact is fact whether it is reported in a tabloid or a "quality" daily. Such thinking simply shows up the prejudices of those who believe all tabloids report is sensationalist nonsense, which may be true most of the time but not all of the time. This case was reported in all english newspapers so how could it possibly be trial by tabloid for fecks sake.

[citizenED]

Ha, ha, DaveR - a friend of mine reads a lot, and he does all his reading sitting on the john. Must tell him about his kindred spirit.

Anyhow - I heard a fascinating interview with Jeffrey Archer on Radio 5 a few days ago. He was alway famously pretty hard line regarding punitive punishments, until, that is he had his two years in Belmarsh. He came out with reformed views. It was a daily living hell. Boredom, drugs and illiteracy. For anyone with a normal lifestyle, he said, it was a complete shock to the system. Something like 60% illiteracy. 80% on drugs, The place was full of addiction, hopelessness, anger, brutality. One guy he spoke to wanted to swap places with him. "It's OK being in here" he said, "if like you, you'll get out to a job, a house, a family and friends. I've got none of them". It brought Archer up short. A year after leaving prison that guy was found dead on a park bench - heroin.

Archer says he cringes now when former colleagues of him talk of prison being an "easy option".