Controlled crying

[Ruth_Baldock]

Okay folks, tell me about your experiences of using controlled crying.

After observing Tiny Man's behavior over the past five nights I can conclude that he is waking up:

-To comfort nurse; he's not actually hungry (his 'low' weight totally sorted now that we're mix feeding- he put on well over a lb in one week- from 12lb 5oz to 13lb 10oz!!!!)

-To kick and thrash around (we're still co-sleeping and all get in each other's way)

The worm has turned! DH said he was thinking of buying a king sized bed to fit us all and I thought 'You know it's getting ridiculous when you have to buy a bigger bed because of your baby'. Tiny Man is also really grumpy in the day because of the broken sleep, too. Sometimes, he'll be exhausted and will be grizzling, and then will sleep in the day for 4 hours at a time, which was normal when he was a newborn but he's not anymore!

I am determined to make this work. I WILL get a good night's sleep in the next month, even if it nearly kills me getting there.

[snowboarder]

Tricky - we have just done this a bit with baby snowboarder BUT he was 11 months old, which I think is v different to using it with a much younger baby, so think it would be confusing/poss v bad advice to go through what we did.

I would really recommend getting some professional advice/help if sleep/lack of is really not manageable. It took us ages to get to that point, but am glad we did get help in the end/and ongoing as there was no way I could have faced it on my own.

[Ruth_Baldock]

Snowboarder, was hoping you'd reply! I want to try out CC and 'doing it on our own' before getting a proper professional in (also, am a bit skint...). Saying that, a friend from Uni is making a documentary about parent's with babies aged 10months+ who are having sleep problems, and the participating parents get weeks of free guidance/advice from a professional! If only Tiny Man was 6 months older...

[snowboarder]

I think then you will have to read up (Gina Ford does have some advice I think?) and try and get AGE SPECIFIC advice if you can - I think the thing that will prob be different is the amount of time you actually leave him to cry for. And it's important to be able to 'read' his cries - ie is he just cross you're not feeding him or is something wrong? Also at - what - 4/5 months you might be still doing a dreamfeed or something? We went completely cold turkey on the night feeds but again bsb weighs prob 23lbs not 13 so is well able to get through the night.

It's VERY hard to be consistent and keep your nerve. I am still suffering stomach clenching anxiety! I also read an awful lot that made me feel that it was something I could never do, but I got to the point that I could physically no longer 'parent' him to sleep 4+ times a night, and he needed to learn how to do it himself - if not for the very reasons you talk about - he was not getting enough sleep himself either.

[snowboarder]

ps just to say there are lots of more gentle approaches too - baby whisperer shush pat etc....

[Ruth_Baldock]

I've got Gina Ford's book (got it when Tiny Man was 2 weeks old and I was BESIDE myself) but it just didn't 'feel' right. I have heard good things about baby whisperer though and have just bought it on amazon.

He HAS slept through about three times, so I know he can go from 12-7 without a feed, and the Health Visitor gave us the go ahead- his last feed of the night is breast and then 90mls of aptamil which, if undisturbed, gets him through (i.e. if DH works through the night and it's just me and bubs in the bed, thus more room). He's definitely waking up because he's squished etc.

Oh god, can hear him crying. I haven't been to synagogue in years but feel the need to say a little prayer...

[Fuschia]

Please read something first about human brain development and the effects of cortisol

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/075663993X/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=103612307&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1405314869&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=0Z51F4YPKKTPHR7SSNBR

[apenn]

I've got an 8 month old. He's never slept "through" yet. Granted, I'm breastfeeding, but it doesn't really bother me because when he wakes up for a comfort feed he goes right back to sleep and so do I. Perhaps I'm being lazy by just giving in, but I don't feel sleep deprived so I guess I don't have the motivation to do anything different. I decided a while back that rather than "fight" his habits, I would just go with them. We all seem to get more sleep this way. Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is be careful not to stress yourself out with a goal of getting him to sleep through by a particular date. It may work for you (and I hope it does!), but it's not the only way to get a decent night of sleep.

Sorry, that's more of a comment about our experience than advice on CC. I guess I'm a pushover, but I just couldn't do it.

Also, my son still took 3-4 hr naps until he was about 4 months old, so I don't think this is necessarily abnormal. It didn't seem to affect how much he slept at night.

Good luck!

-A

[snowboarder]

Mmm - Ruth - was thinking - have you looked at the no cry sleep solution (I know, books, books!) - and I've got another one by William Sears (The baby sleep book I think - got it in the bookshop in east dulwich) which is more focused around improving sleep from a co sleeping background? Was just thinking it's a pretty massive step to go from co-sleeping to controlled crying. Maybe try and get him used to sleeping in his cot for a couple of weeks first? Just an idea....

[anna_r]

My daughter didn't sleep through, waking up at least twice a night until 10 months...we considered controlled crying but could never go through with it. When she was about 8 months we started just giving her water instead of milk in the night and I would sit with her and rock her while she was a bit upset (sometimes for an hour at a time) for about a week, which did start to break the milk habit. However, in the end I think it was more a question of her being developmentally ready for sleeping through, and eating solids properly etc than much that we did. I also gave up breastfeeding at 7 months which may or may not have helped (although introducing a bottle of formula at bedtime from 6 months, which many people had said would help did nothing).

Also getting her into a really good daytime nap routine. It was totally exhausting but looking back I'm really glad we did it that way and didn't go through the controlled crying route. Now she is 14 months she sleeps through from 7.30 to 6.30 four out of five nights. I'm planning on doing a similar thing with my second, due in July (although the baby may of course be totally different!!)

The no-cry sleep solution has some good tips, but I didn't do the whole regime (too tired!!) My daughter's other big problem was self settling at bedtime (she needed to be rocked for ages) but getting a really strict bedtime routine with lots of sleep cues helped with this. She also seemed to need to do a little bit of crying each night almost just to shout the day out (she'd do this even if she was being held). We never let her cry alone for more than 10 minutes at a time, and then only 'shouty' type grumbling crying, not hysterical crying. I guess I'd agree that controlled crying is a big step at this age, and even though it seems like you cannot cope with the nights, things will get better, I promise. Most books do not recommend it until at least 6 months. Good luck

[Ruth_Baldock]

Thanks everyone for your advice and comments. I must sound very harsh to a lot of you, but I am literally at my wits end with this because, as I have mentioned in another post, DH works all. the. time, (leaving at 7am and not getting back 'till 11.30pm some nights). I'm caring for my son entirely on my own for the most part and the lack of sleep is making this impossible at the moment and DH doesn't really help much when he's being demanding in the middle of the night. (Me and DH not bessie mates over this issue at the moment...)

I used to be able to comfort feed him straight back to sleep, but recently he's been wide awake after a feed and will NOT go back to sleep. So, as you can imagine, I have had ENOUGH and somethings got to give. Last night he was back in our bed again and woke himself up by thrashing around against my back. if he had been in his cot at the end of our bed, this wouldn't have happened!

ANYHOO, must go and entertain child now. He's currently chatting to himself under his playgym. If he wasn't so lovely, I'd have lost my mind a long time ago...

He has a very good and predictable naptime routine, thankgod, except the timings of the naps have been a bit off over the past fortnight...odd. When he's really tired, even a 3-4 hour nap won't sort him out and he wakes up grumpy, and doesn't stop being grumpy even after a feed.

however, i tried CC last night and it failed in a huge way. Tiny Man cried hysterically and took a good hour to calm down; he seemed to keep remembering what had happened and would become inconsolable again. Sigh.

[anna_r]

Ruth - I don't think you sound harsh and it sounds like you are doing an amazing job. I don't know how I would have coped without my husband to hand the baby over to for a break when he came home after work at 5.30. I've read a lot of your posts and I'm amazed you manage to be so funny and eloquent in your situation! When you are sleep deprived all that seems to matter is getting that one night of uninterrupted sleep. I didn't have one night like that until 10 months and was literally begging my daughter to sleep through.

I don't really have any advice re: controlled crying in particular as I said but I know there are some people on this forum who have found it successful. One thing to consider though is that perhaps co-sleeping is not helping. Our daughter started sleeping a bit better a) when we put the moses basket in her own room at about 3 months and b) when we switched the monitor off so didn't wake up for every little peep. We also sometimes tried co-sleeping just to see if it would help and although it would occasionally give us a few more hours in the morning, it generally didn't help and none of us slept well, particularly when she was more than a couple of months old. Again though, co-sleeping is brilliant for some people, especially if breastfeeding.

Do investigate the no cry book though. I have a copy you can borrow if you want, although I will want it back for number 2!!! When you are through this phase and getting good sleep you will appreciate it so much more than you ever thought possible! Literally I wake up beaming and am in a good mood all day after a good night :) you will get there.

[legalbeagle]

Ruth you don't sound harsh and have my full sympathies. My second child cried every night, and woke up just about every hour, until he was over 8 months old. Given that I also had a 22 month old child, this was just not sustainable, and it nearly killed me! I know I'm going to come in for a lot of criticism for this, but I read Dr Richard Ferber's book - how to solve your childs sleep problems - and it worked a treat. I know it is controversial, but I have to say that having read the whole book, I think he comes in for a lot of very unfair criticism. His method does not suggest, for one minute, that you just let your child yell till they are exhausted. In fact he positively criticises that method. In fact his method is very gentle, and much more "humane" than you might imagine, though it is a form of controlled crying. It takes some dedication, and about 2 weeks, but it really did work for me. I know every child is different, so no guarantees, but it might be worth reading it if you are at your wits end. Good luck and don't be too hard on yourself, it's really really difficult to manage anything without sleep!

[Superstarpen]

I still recall Fushia's advice to me that children don't have normal adult sleeping patterns until they are two years of age. My son is now 15months old and has never slept through yet. I feed him to sleep still and he continues to wake through the night. I recently did a teaching placement and I was on my knees with tiredness but I cannot bring myself to do controlled crying...

[apenn]

A friend of mine in the States had twins with colic. Her mother-in-law hired a night nurse for her to help out 2 nights a week. No idea how you would go about finding one here, or what it would cost. Did a quick search but this was all I could find: http://www.whatprice.co.uk/advice/parent/baby-nurse-hire.html

Anyone out there that could recommend one?

-A

[nunheadmum]

Ruth - we used Night Nannies with our LO when she was 4 months old. (She's our second and our first hadn't slept through till she was 18months which we couldn't face again.) It was no where near as bad as we thought it might be (only took 3-4 nights) and so much easier with a professional guiding you. It's not cheap but it was SO worth it and didn't take as long as we thought it would so not as expensive as we thought it would be.

That said, from what you've said about co-sleeping, it sounds as though getting your son into his own cot may help a lot. Maybe sleep with some bedding in your bed for a couple of nights and then use that to make up his cot so it smells more familiar. A couple of your t-shirts or the likes in the bed or tucked under the sheet may help too. If you can get the cot next to your bed, sleeping near to it may mean you can get a hand in to reassure him if he does start to rouse. Or a cot that butts up to your bed is even better - but not so many cots do that.

Having been there, I really feel for anyone struggling with a baby that doesn't sleep - they don't use sleep deprivation as a form of torture for nothing!!

[Fuschia]

Superstarpen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I still recall Fushia's advice to me that children

> don't have normal adult sleeping patterns until

> they are two years of age. My son is now 15months

> old and has never slept through yet. I feed him to

> sleep still and he continues to wake through the

> night. I recently did a teaching placement and I

> was on my knees with tiredness but I cannot bring

> myself to do controlled crying...

Not to say that all babies do wake at night for a long time.. but it's more common than you might think and based on infant brain development, it's true.

I read an interesting study into sleep which went through how sleep patterns actually get worse before they get better... and that the main correlation between parental behaviour in the early days and later sleep patterns was that babies were more prone to sleep through later if they are out of their parents rooms earlier (or vice versa!) and if they were left to 'grumble' to themselves when small.

So that leaves a large number of us who breastfeed, possibly cosleep and prefer the sleep disruption to the alternatives... but there is hope because children start to have longer sleep cycles at the stage they can understand that mummy has closed the night time milk bar...

And when you look back, a couple of years has gone in a flash, really...

[woofmarkthedog]

Ruth...

First I feel for you , sleep depravation is a killer. That said even short sleep needs to be good quality. I have been hands on with all tasks with MicroW**F 1 & 2. & both boys are very different characters.

Thing is, all 3 in a bed together mechanically just doesn't work, two big adults plus one small size baby is a recipe for broken , demanding & dissatisfying "sleep" or is it just passing out with exhaustion ?

Fair but firm is how life seems to work most harmoniously. I would start as you mean to go on,put him in his own cot at the foot of the bed. You need your bed to rest in & it's your sacred place.

He will learn to love his cosy little basket, then his cot & finally a big boys bed. I know couples who have continued under duress to share the bed & eventually it has driven them to distraction, the little prince sadly becomes a wedge between the parents.

The tears of fustration from the adults follows as they try to break the habit and regain some sense of them selves, often too late. Yes you will get people telling you "I had all mine in our bed until they were..bla..bla " and that might be true however, most of the real world doesn't.

Boys need to develop a sense of calm , nurtured independence. It starts in your own cot in Mum & Dads room, moving gently through each stage & into their own space.

Lastly knackered parents are no use to anyone, let alone them selves. You sound like a good Mum to me & boys like to be shown how to please their Mothers.

I know it's tough, parenting is. But you will get through it.

Lastly chuck Gina Ford in the bin, she never had kids her self anyway

Chin up....you can do it(tu)

W**F

[Pecanpie]

W**F said

'Fair but firm is how life seems to work most harmoniously. I would start as you mean to go on,put him in his own cot at the foot of the bed. You need your bed to rest in & it's your sacred place. I know couples who have continued under duress to share the bed & eventually it has driven them to distraction.

Lastly knackered parents are no use to anyone, let alone them selves.'

I agree with loads of w**f's comments, this v's the article posted by Fuschia, we all feel so pasionately about this one.

My penny's worth, there is lots to try before controled crying. There is a time and a place for 'mum knows best', and controled crying, but there are lots of things to try first. My top tips are 1. no naps past 3.30, 2. loads of lovely bedtime routein including bath, 3. put down happy and awake as i'm convinced the way they go off to sleep is the way they get back to sleep. 4 if all else fails and they are old enough (at least 8 months), and its turning your and your baby's lives to poo, three nights and its done. Its a trade of between three nights upset v's having a stressed out, crazy mother/ family, which is also not good for a baby.

PS knew someone who grew up in a 'tribe' often quoted by anthropologists, i asked her about carrying/ co sleeping etc, she said be strict with sleep as otherwise they would keep the whole village up!:)

Hope this is useful, good luck

[Fuschia]

I don't think it's total laissez faire anything goes baby is King vs leave 'em on their own to cry... of coure you need a balance and just as the baby will develop as it gorws, so there ae times the parent has less to give.

Even proponents of the "family bed" recognise that the time comes when the mother needs her night times back!http://drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html

[ratty]

My boy was in his own cot, in his own room at 5 weeks bslept through for the first time just before 3 months. Controlled crying of 5 minute intervals at that time. Usually took no more than 3 times to get him back to sleep. This was always between 7 and 10pm. Just shows that every parent is different and every child is too.

[snowboarder]

For us, Pecanpie's point 3 was always our sticking point but I agree is absolutely KEY to getting longer periods of sleep - put baby down awake. We had great routine etc and he always slept in his cot at night but he never ever went off to sleep by himself. If I put him down in his cot he would always cry, patting etc didn't work and I would always end up getting him out and rock/feed to sleep. It's been pretty nerve shredding but we are now gradually getting there with this and the result is better sleep all round.

I think my need for action came when I realised it wasn't just me who was shattered. He was too - and somehow we needed to help him learn to get to sleep by himself. Of course - there are many ways of guiding this.

[Sanne Panne]

If you're seriously sleep deprived and/or frustrated and you're confident that your baby is old enough to self soothe without panicking (6 months?) I think you can try controlled crying. It worked for us but it only took us 3 nights, first night 20 minutes (5 + 5 + 10 minutes in between us going in to soothe her), second night 10 minutes, third night 5 minutes. After that she's always either gone to sleep immediately or after 2 minutes of fussing. Right now she loves her bed but she's a toddler now.

I'm not sure what we would have done if she had cried longer/harder, I think I would have broken at some point - it's a very delicate balance between your heart/head, instincts, own physical needs (sleep deprivation is serious) and so on. That's why I'd say assess whether you think you and your baby may be ready for it and then maybe give it a try. It may be the easiest thing ever. Our 20 month old daughter is super addicted to her dummy for sleep but for a number of reasons that aren't relevant to this thread we decided to get rid of it cold turkey. I thought it would be hell on earth - the reality however was that she went to sleep after 15 minutes of protest at our first attempt to let her nap without the dummy.

So my advice would be to see if it works, if you try it and your baby doesn't respond well and/or you can't handle it, stop it.

[Ruth_Baldock]

Hello again everyone.

Well! Baby Baldock is so strongwilled that CC does NOT work in the slightest. We've moved his cot out of his room and at the foot of the bed and today all his naps were in said cot and last night he slept for 2 hours straight in the thing, before coming into our bed (fell asleep after the 2am feed...whoops). We're hoping to build on this until 2 hours turns into 3, then 4 and so on. I don't mind getting up to feed him once in the night if he quickly settles back into his own cot. After a few months, we'll move him into his own room I think. It was very nice to have those 2 hours without him the bed, got to cuddle DH (normal working hours have resumed- 9-5pm GET IN!) last night for the first time in MONTHS. Aw.

I followed Pecanpie and Snowboarder's advice, putting him down for naps/sleep when he was still awake and not asleep and he did settle himself quite happily, after a good feed, which is most excellent. His naps are only lasting around 30 minutes, as opposed to 1.5-3 hours, but maybe it's a case of little and often?

Thanks again everyone for your advice, comments and experiences; lets hope CC doesn't become necessary :/ The only night we did it was horrifying for both of us and I am still a bit of a nervous wreck over it, tbh. We're weaning in 2 1/2 weeks too, and i have heard this can sometimes help with getting more sleep. My Mother told me I was expecting too much, hoping he'd go from waking so frequently to sleeping 7pm-7am in a week or so, and I think she's probably right...

[Pickle]

That's great news Ruth, sounds very promising. I too have always put my babies down awake, and both are great self settlers and generally sleep very well (are now nearly 2 and 3). I'm sure you'll find that gradually he's happy in his cot for longer periods, and things will slowly but surely become easier.

Take care,

P x