EU Petition

[maxxi]

This of course means allowing another Scottish referendum for the same reasons. And sooner rather than later.

I always felt this was too close for any one side that won (whichever it was) to go steaming ahead without taking the feelings of those on the other side of the argument into account.

Cameron made a mistake promising the referendum but may not have got his majority without it so he can sink.

I think there needs to be a general election and a new government chosen that sets out exactly how it will deal with EU and what negotiations will take place and with exactly what aims. Once the electorate knows what those plans are a second referendum is probably right - all this should happen asap and before the 'button' is pressed.

[jaywalker]

maxxi Wrote:

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>

> I think there needs to be a general election and a

> new government chosen that sets out exactly how it

> will deal with EU.

I agree, but it is not clear how such a manifesto could be formed, or implemented (remember the Scottish MPs). Rather it suddenly looks quite likely that a new centre party will emerge - the non-Corbyn centre-left joining the non-Ruritanian centre-right. Their leader will win the election easily, and on a manifesto that the General Election itself is the new referendum and a promise to remain (because by that time we will know how the EU plans to punish us).

If you think this is far-fetched think about the position of centre-left and centre-right politicians at the moment: virtually all of whom (of course rightly) think that brexit will be an unmitigated disaster.

[WorkingMummy]

I agree with that too. Only thing I'd say is, EU is not planning to "punish" us, other than, it will have to allow the natural consequences of our decision to flow.

It would be playing right into the hands of existing anti EU propoganda to call this punishment or vengeance. Any more that you are punishing a 5 year old who tantrums out of a party by declining to follow her from the room offering sweets.

WM x

[Alan Medic]

DulwichFox Wrote:

>

> If we backtrack on any democratic vote that does

> not suit some individuals we lose our democracy..

>

> I suspect there are those not willing to embrace

> democracy and the outcome of any democratic

> decision that does not suit them.

>

> DulwichFox

Do you think the first past the post method of choosing MP's in this country is democratic? The usual result is that party representation in parliament does not represent how the people have voted. But that's ok I suppose. Really?

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

messageRe: EU Petition new

Posted by DulwichFox Today, 10:48AM

NOBODY questioned the referendum voting system when it seemed very likely that Remain would win..

Er, I think you'll find the Brexiteers did:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-eu-referendum_uk_576e6585e4b08d2c56393f12

[keano77]

Strictly speaking it is Alan.

You will remember there was a referendum recently on whether to keep FPTP or replace it with an alternative vote system and the will of the people decided to keep it. Despite its imperfections then it has been democratically endorsed.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

messageRe: EU Petition

Posted by Toffee Today, 12:09PM

How will signing thos petition change anything? On this basis the whole voting system will have to change. If I vote for the tories in the next general election and labour get in. Does that then mean all tory voters can demand a re-election?

The voting system would not need to change. A referendum is advisory only. It isn't legally binding in the way an election is.

[nxjen]

Signed - I'm not leaving quietly

Approaching one and a half million

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Actually, that's why I signed too. I doubt it will get more than a debate in Parliament as promised. The Brexit side seemed to feel they had a corner on the market of being able to beat their chests and howl with rage about feeling their country had been hijacked. They would be the first to be raging if we'd voted in on a narrow margin people were saying within hours of the vote that they felt deceived into voting Remain.

Rage rage against the dying of the light etc.

[nxjen]

It will give the opportunity for the many, many Remain MPs to argue against Brexit and against the whole validity and truth behind the Brexit campaign. I'm not sure of the numbers but if there's a cross party vote then the motion for a second referendum might be carried.

(Difficult tactical choice for the SNP)

[Toffee]

It seems to me that the "deal is done" and there's no way back. The remaining Eu members want us gone Asap.

[nxjen]

No, the deal is not done, the referendum held on Thursday isn't even legally binding. As far as the other EU members wanting us gone ASAP,it's not up to them.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

And they don't want us gone ASAP. They just don't want the process to be dragged out as the longer it takes the greater the risk of market contagion taking the rest of the global economy down with us.

[heartblock]

They can't make us go until we officially ask - we still have a seat and we are still in the EU and we still have a veto vote.

Who in government is going to officially do this..... Not Cameron.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Interestingly, Merkel has just reaffirmed that we are a member of the EU until leaving is finally agreed.

[nxjen]

Jeremy Corbyn is reported to have rejected the petition for a second referendum. What planet is he living on?

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Corbyn doesn't want us in the EU. Historically, he was anti-EU as many hard leftists are (EU state aid rules make nationalising assets very difficult). I don't believe for a second that he wanted us to stay, which was pretty obvious from his weak campaign.

[nxjen]

The news item was in The Scotsman and on rereading it, they seem to be putting words in Corbyn's mouth, not reporting what he actually said. Still think he should go as leader of the Labour Party, need someone with more balls. Metaphorically speaking!

[Lynne]

Can I start a petition not to have another petition?

[muffins78]

1.1 million further signatures since I posted 9 hours ago!!

[jaywalker]

Lynne Wrote:

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> Can I start a petition not to have another

> petition?

Lynne, that is the entire point of the demand for another referendum.

I did not have to read Kant to realise that there is an aporia in the notion of a single referendum. Aporia: the idea of a single referendum undoes the conceptual basis on which it is posited. IF the will of the people is sovereign on any particular issue THEN the will of the people must be consulted on EVERY particular issue.

Now, this aporia could be sutured: we could have a rolling (of course, online) market for/against EU exit with a deadline of 2 years set when article 50 is invoked. Now how do you think that market would unfold as we came to study the consequences?

I do not have to think referenda are a good idea to think that IF we have one THEN we should have many.

[DulwichFox]

FFS. You cannot just keep voting until you get your own way..

Don't people get it. ?

DF

[Earl Aelfheah]

On this I agree with Fox. The decision has been made, the chips will fall where they may. We will all have to live with the consequences as will our children.

[muffins78]

Other countries have had multiple referendums until their governments could demonstrate that whatever the referendum were about, were beneficial etc...

[Alan Medic]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> FFS. You cannot just keep voting until you get

> your own way..

>

> Don't people get it. ?

>

> DF

You can if the idiots see sense. Seems plenty are now.