Copy of Lib Dem coalition agreement with Tories

[mockney piers]

In all fairness I don't think the semantic distinction between Sinn Fein and IRA could be any less political could it ;)

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I meant 'politically correct' in an ironic, political way; not in the perjorative sense it's generally used!

[mockney piers]

*shuffles toe in dirt with circular motion*

of course I knew that ... ahem

[Loz]

Most of the stuff I read on here is just pseudo intellectual drivel, regurgitated from last night's newnight

I take umbrage at this. Most of the stuff I write is regurgitated from yesterday's Cbeebies.

[mockney piers]

Ooh I missed that. Pseudo intellectual it may be but it's all my own* ;-)

*though in fairness I am watching ALOT of CBeebies at the mo.

[Huguenot]

I'm kind of stuck with re-runs of CSI series four on AXN.

They are notable for their political commentary. ::o

[sian]

Have you been following the Northern Ireland peace process Cllr Barber?. Even Dr Ian Paisley moved on from this terminology. Your pact with the Conservative/Ulster Unionist party has obviously caught on very quickly. Your comment is grossly offensive to Irish people. I am raising this with your party. You might care to look at how the Standards Board has treated anti-Irish comments.

[Gimme]

James,

You should know by now that they are not Sinn Fein / IRA they are Sinn Fein / ex-IRA.

If people can forget Osborne's alleged coke and girls parties, and Cleggs alleged womanising then surely you should be able to forget that the key Sinn Fein politicians were allegedly IRA top brass ordering the deaths of scores of innocent people in the 70's. Everyone has skeletons but you have to let it drop!

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Of course I should have typed Sinn Fein - funiliy

> enough just completed a history of the IRA. Yes I

> do understand Sinn Fein orignally the political

> wing of the IRA and that Sinn Fein's current

> leader in the past also commanded the IRA. An

> amazing man to have helped make peace possible.

> Funny the angst we all have for a coaltion in

> comparison to Northern Ireland.

>

> The point I was making is their MP's have not sat

> in the Houses of Parliament and have not voted. So

> the actual number of MP's required for a majority

> is fractionally less than half the number of

> actual MP's. It made the maths of an alternative

> to a Lib Dem/Tory coalition more possible.

[mockney piers]

How on earth is it 'grossly offensive'. I mean, it's not strictly speaking wrong is it.

It was unnecessary given that the process is ongoing; why on earth an Irishman should be offended by it is beyond me.

Should an Englishman be offended at the mere mention of Drogheda or Dresden? That's even weirder.

[Magpie]

Sian - a bit sensitive surely, he's already explained it was a mistake

[Brendan]

Both you guys are displaying the type of attitude that I had an apoplectic go at Bob and SimonM a while back about. English people seem to do this without even realising it or why it?s so wrong. You have every right to have your own opinions on things but you don?t, not for a second, have the right to tell someone else how they should feel/react to something.

Although I should point out it?s not specifically an English thing. I just seems to be common amongst them.

EDIT: To be less culturally offensive.

[mockney piers]

Well now I'm grossly offended you're calling me English!!! Apopletic in fact.

[Brendan]

Well JuanMockney, apoplexy is all the rage* these days.

It?s a bit like when people were getting all judgemental on the Spaniards for knifing cows.

Personally I don?t like it (the knifing that is) but feel that?s it?s not for me to judge someone else?s tradition.

Except it?s not cows it?s a hangover from oppression and discrimination and having some or other foreign army mucking about it their affairs for the better part of the last millennia.

Actually come to think of it it?s nothing at all like the Spanish and their cows.

Anyway I?m going wildly off topic here. Apologies Madam Chairman.

*geddit?

[Magpie]

Well if I'm expected to be grown up about the fact that a significant number of Sinn Fein representatives are former PIRA members, some of whom have been inside for terrorist activity, then its only fair that people are grown up about a genuine error on semantics.

[mockney piers]

Semantics aside this is about whether pointing out that Sinn Fen was IRA is offensive or not.

People can get all judgmental about cow knifing, Spaniards aren't offended (those that even care) they just shrug Nd wonder why people are pissing in the wind so pointlessly.

If for instance I was to call Ariel Sharon a terrorist turned war criminal, an Israeli might get as offended as they want, doesn't make it any less factual, in fact the act of taking offence is both a form of denial and a ridiculous form of conflation between the actions of a few with that of millions of heterogenous people.

Likewise I'm struggling to see why the mention of the IRA is somehow 'offensive to Irish people'. Forgive me but that's just bonkers.

I mean, I've yet to have an Irish person in my house (and being married to one I've had quite a few) who hasn't loved my terrorist teapot!

[Brendan]

But that?s not the point. No it doesn?t change the truth. It?s the criticism of the Israeli?s (to use the example) opinion when you are quite clearly not in, and can?t fully understand their position that gets me.

And you've never shown me your terrorist teapot.

[mockney piers]

You've done this before. I don't think you have to be a local to a historical situation to have a monopoly on an opinion.

Sian IS offended, that's fine (I don't get it but thats my problem). It's the idea that it's offensive to the Irish that I have a problem with.

And just because I didn't grow up in the troubles doesn't mean I don't know lots of people who did and have read widely in the subject.

Again, my family's strife through the civil war and Franco's Spain gives me a close and singular perspective on what went on, but that doesn't mean noone else is allowed to say, for instance, Franco's victory was the best thing in the long run. It might upset me (probably because there's more than a kernel of truth) but I can't say 'you're English therefore know nothing' (not to mention betrayed the legitimate goverment and millions of people to the dark forces of facism you cynical bastards).

And I'll make you a brew next time you're over, or I could bring it to Surrey assuming there aren't laws against that sort of thing down there.

[Brendan]

You?re still not getting what I?m saying. We all know lots about lots of things. Hindsight and objectivity are wonderful things and we can all form whatever opinions we want.

But no matter how much we know about something we shouldn't tell someone else how they should feel about it especially if it is something that involves them directly.

[mockney piers]

But that's exactly what my problem is.

Same as when some council bigwig says Christmas is offensive to Muslims, or Allo Allo is offensive to Germans (they've finally bought it). It's telling people how to think.

I was just opining (not telling) that I was unable to square the circle.

Plus, I quite like cow knifing.

[david_carnell]

Oh come on Brendan that's drivel.

In that case, kindly keep your opinions to yourself when bumping into BNP voters in East London. Having not grown up here you are clearly not in a position to point out the ignorant bullsh*t that informs their prejudices. You couldn't possibly understand the difficulties they face now that Johnny Immigrant has taken "their jobs".

Utter nonsense. Of course you can. And as for judging other people's cultural habits - I'm doing that too! You know about female circumcision? Well I'm telling you now it's wrong and no amount of woolly, liberal pinko crackpots are going to tell me to be all sensitive about it. Ditto forced marriages and general female oppression. I'm not a women, I don't live in the third world or in some Sharia-state but I know it's wrong an I'll shout it from the rooftops.

[Brendan]

I think the good people of Surrey probably do have some sort of rules against Republican tea. The countryside does have its upsides though. We don't have bullfights but there is a Donkey Derby on the green on Sunday which I think is going to give the Monaco Grand Prix a run for its money.

[????]

How's the golf going? (car and leisure activity)

[Brendan]

What you?ve described there David is a common modern liberal conundrum but you?re still not getting it. Saying something is wrong, shouting it from the highest rooftops, campaigning against it or whatever, is very different to judging what a person (or people) whose world view and personal experience are wildly different to yours, thinks or feels about something.

[Jeremy]

Of course Mockney does not know about Sian's personal experiences. But neither can Sian speak for an entire nation! I'm pretty sure that not all Irish feel the same way about this.

[david_carnell]

@ Brendan - And all you?re doing is being patronising to those people. Coming across some Sudanese tribesman who still thinks it?s appropriate to mutilate his own daughter?s genitals, you?re essentially ruffling his hair and saying ?Ah, bless, they?re so different from us aren?t they ? and therefore it would be wrong of me to judge his actions?.

To which I say absolutely not. I am perfectly entitled to believe that my western, liberal standpoint is superior in this instance. Not always, I grant you. But on this emotive issue, and on many others, I AM going to judge and I?m going to be right. In the past, now and in the future, I will be right.

That may be seen as western arrogance, but fundamentally, it?s true.

Although how this is relevant to the LibDem/Tory coalition is anyone?s guess! Unless the Tories plans for Sharia law?.wouldn?t surprise me and the Cornerstone Group would probably get very excited.