Vegetarian gastronomy - oxymoron?

[wee quinnie]

Realised I was dragging Mick's thread about the Gowlett out of focus.

I dispute Mr Sean MG's remark that vegetarian gastronomy is an oxymoron.

One exmaple (I am sure there are many more):

http://www.cafeparadiso.ie/reviews

[Jeremy]

Pied a Terre, Marcus Wareing, Rousillon, and others do veggie menus... if they aren't gastronomic, I don't know where is!

[SeanMacGabhann]

Not Gastronomic... But catering to a demographic

Wq.. I was outside that very restaurant a few months back but wasn't tempted in. Nice rooms above tho

[expat]

Le Manoir who have 2 Michelin Star also do a vegetarian menu.

However I do not know offhand of any starred restaurants that does not cook meat...

[woofmarkthedog]

Well...

This blogger thinks it's real

( it's not rocking it for me though )

* waves carrot *

W**F

[Huguenot]

I had a bit of a look around on this one. Very interesting subject.

It revolves around how we define 'gastronomy'. Most seem to see it as more than just great food, but an immersion of food within culture - an exploration of way in which food transcends taste and becomes an experience, an indulgence.

The problem with assessing vegetarianism in this light is that it's quite the opposite of indulgence. In fact it's an ascetic pursuit, it involves abstaining from certain experiences.

If the abstinence or deliberate constraints were based on heightening the experience, much like bondage and sex I guess, then you could argue it was actually about indulgence. However most vegetarians I know didn't take it up because of an improved experience, but for rational and usually moral reasons.

Hence in this light, vegetarianism really couldn't be a gastronomic experience, but not for reasons involving the flavour.

[woofmarkthedog]

http://sf0.org/media/Lincoln/main_img029834306.jpg

Rabbitless Stew

2-4 wild rabbits, running round out side

250g salted pork belly or pancetta, cut into chunky cubes & left at the butchers

1 tbsp olive oil

1 large onion, thickly sliced

1 large man is a carrot suit, cut into 4cm lengths

4 celery sticks, cut into 4cm lengths

2 bay leaves

A sprig of thyme (optional)

500ml dry cider

1 generous tsp honey

Salt and freshly ground black pepper

[Jeremy]

I dunno, we all place constraints on our diet to a certain extent... moral reasons, religious beliefs, cultural norms.

There are plenty of things I wouldn't eat.

[Huguenot]

Well that probably means that you can't be a true gourmet I'm afraid.

Ever seen 'The Cook, The Thief, his Wife and her Lover'?

[SeanMacGabhann]

me too - it's why I don't consider myself a gastronome. I'm way too fussy and squeamish. I'm way better than I was but still an embarrassment

But Huguenot has beaten me to most of the points I was going to make

You can find definitions of gastronomy that fit with high end vegetarian food but my feeling about what gastronomy is is similar to the wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastronomy

I don't know if this represents the "tyranny of the meat eater" as expressed in another thread

You can make a a good argument that gastronomy is wasteful and unsustainable and the rest of it - I'm certainly not closed on those arguments. But vegetarian cooking by definition precludes too many things for me to consider it gastronomic - in some ways I would have thought it would be proud of that fact

[Huguenot]

An over indulged gastro gnome after an extended Sunday lunch at Franklin's...

http://www.victoria-dove.com/Pics/FairiesAndGnomes/GnomeSleepy2.jpg

I agree on religions and whatnot, it's not just a problem for vegtarianism. I don't think you can be a gastro gnome if you don't eat pork or beef either.

[Asset]

Hang on a minute, I may be coming in late - not been around much lately but personally I object to the term 'vegetarian food'. It's all just food - some of it with meat and some of it without. Italian cooking particularly has lots of fantastic dishes that contain just vegetables and pulses. I understand Huge's point re. the definition of gastronomy but hasn't the term been mutated to mean lovely, delicious food - which in my opinion can be done without the addition of meat.

[cate]

Completely agree with Asset.

[Huguenot]

Well I guess that's okay if everyone wants to redefine gastronomy.

Doesn't that mean we need to find another word to describe a complete over indulgence and immersion in food as a sensory and cultural experience?

We're going to run out of superlatives if we keep using them to describe lesser events ;-)

*hands on hips*

We'll have an Iceland 'gastronomic' range of frozen spam before we know what's hit us (and of course, Louisa, why shouldn't we?)!

[Jeremy]

Huguenot - your defintion of gastronomy is an interesting one, but it is your personal interpretation. For instance, Sean's wikipedia link talks about food along with culture and discovery, but actually makes no reference to indulgence or anything of the sort. I doubt you will find a definition (from any noteworthy source) which explicity excludes vegetarianism.

I may be wrong... show me some sources which back up your definition/interpretation...

[david_carnell]

Although wikipedia is only a self-editing encyclopedia - it could just as easily be Huguenot's opinion.

And I, for one, agree with him. Whilst some vegetarian food, just as non-vegetarian food, can be superb; ignoring vast swathes of consumables based on an ethical conviction would strike me as a particularly non-gastronomic attitude.

[expat]

The OED defines it as eating good food

[mass noun]

the practice or art of choosing, cooking, and eating good food the cookery of a particular area:

traditional American gastronomy

So I guess using that definition you could have vegetarian gastronomy even if it seems wrong...

[Mick Mac]

World English Dictionary

gastronomy (ɡ?sˈtrɒnəmɪ)

? n

1. the art of good eating

2. the type of cookery of a particular region: the gastronomy of Provence

[C19: from French gastronomie, from Greek gastronomia, from gastēr stomach; see -nomy ]

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition

2009 ? William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 ? HarperCollins

The art of good eating would surely be referencing the culinary ablity of the chef and the personal appreciation of the diner and would not be deemed to refer to specific types of cuisine, being vegetarian or meat.

The fact that over the centuries the top cuisine has been seen to be meat related (French led maybe) does not pevent a culinary expertise of the same level being achieved in relation to vegetarian dishes and as people have pointed out some countries have achieved high level of gastronomic delights with vegetarian dishes alongside meat dishes.

I have never before thought of the word as implying a reference to any specific type of food or to the exclusion of any particular type of food.

[Huguenot]

Quite right Jeremy, there is no source that specifically excludes vegetarianism from gastronomy, much as there is no map of the world that excludes Luxembourg. Doesn't make Luxembourg the world though.

I'm not saying that vegetables aren't a subset of gastronomy, I just think they're getting above their station if they claim to be gastronomy.

I can't think of a greater superlative in the food world than gastronomy, it seems inappropriate to use it in description of only a subset of food.

[Mick Mac]

Vegetarian cooking is not claiming to be gastronomy Huguenot - someone is on the contrary saying that it cannot be included as gastronomy (ie that they are contrary terms)

[cate]

Yes, that was Sean.

[Jeremy]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Although wikipedia is only a self-editing encyclopedia - it could just as easily be Huguenot's opinion.

Of course! It is just one definition, as is Huguenot's. Neither are definitive (but at least the self-moderating nature of Wikipedia means that you generally end up with something that the majority can agree on).

The thing is, the dictionary definition of the word is fairly broad. So to say that vegetarianism and gastronomy are incompatible... is taking an interpretation (or perhaps an extrapolation?) of the word and running with it.

Oh and... Luxembourg isn't the world, but world does contain Luxembourg last time I checked (although I've never actually been there)

[Huguenot]

Oh I wouldn't go if I were you, it's very worthy and ethically sound, but essentially dull.

That's not to say that there isn't a good bar there, but it would be unfair to class it as a 24 hour party city.

After all, if you did, based on a technicality, what have you got left to describe those places that are really fun?

:-)

[Asset]

Well Huge, I would say that if one was to experience a fully gastronomic experience under your definition i.e. immersing oneself in all cultural indulgent possibilites, then you would not be able to rule out a bit of long pig, obviously you have no moral and ethical objections as they rule out the true gastronomic experience.

[Huguenot]

Long pigs I've not encountered, are they in Franklin's?