Immigration Investigation Van (last Tuesday)

[lavender27]

On Tuesday I saw officers and a civilian getting out of an Immigration Investigation Van on Crystal palace Road. I've never seen one of those before. Does anyone know what was going on?

[Tractorlad]

Investigating a suspected immigration issue? Just a guess. I suspect you might have too much time on your hands. If it help, I've a stack of ironing at home if you're bored? Thanks.

[uncleglen]

Just one means of removal-

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/illegal-immigration

in October the Government are offering illegals ?2000 to leave.....

[Earl Aelfheah]

'illegals'?

[TheArtfulDogger]

Maybe they were on a tea break going for a bacon sandwich 🙄

[lavender27]

I'll do mine first Tractorlad, and then I'll be over to you, don't hold yer breath though.

Tractorlad Wrote:

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> Investigating a suspected immigration issue? Just

> a guess. I suspect you might have too much time

> on your hands. If it help, I've a stack of

> ironing at home if you're bored? Thanks.

[uncleglen]

ok, unlawful non-citizen.

[rendelharris]

Did it say "Immigration Enforcement"? A dodgy bunch, they dress and use vehicles like coppers but actually aren't. They're supposed to use warrants to raid premises they suspect of housing or employing illegal immigrants but actually in more than 50% of cases they claim "informed consent," which can basically be made to mean anything they want it to mean.

[IlonaM]

Try undocumented migrant

uncleglen Wrote:

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> ok, unlawful non-citizen.

[Nigello]

Rendel - Please show us your source.

[Jules-and-Boo]

illegal immigrant is now an "undocumented migrant", IlonaM?

Really?

[rendelharris]

Nigello Wrote:

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> Rendel - Please show us your source.

http://icinspector.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/ICIBI-Report-on-illegal-working-17.12.2015.pdf

Sections 5.18/5.19 (pg 23):

5.18 IE have no statutory power of entry to search for immigration offenders. Officers may apply to a magistrate (or sheriff in Scotland) for a warrant to enter premises for specified purposes without

requiring the owner?s consent, or may gain entry with the ?informed consent? of someone in authority at the premises. IE guidance describes ?informed consent? as ?a person?s agreement to allow something to happen after the person has been informed of all the risks involved and the alternatives?

5.19 In the past, IE had made extensive use of Section 28CA of the Immigration Act 1971. This

allowed officers to enter business premises and make arrests with a Home Office Assistant Director?s

authority (an ?AD letter?) in specific circumstances without recourse to a warrant. Our 2014 report

An Inspection of the Use of the Power to Enter Business Premises Without a Search Warrant found that

there had been widespread non-compliance with the guidance and ineffective assurance processes but

also that senior managers had identified this issue and were beginning to improve performance and

compliance.

Section 5.48 (pg 30):

There were inconsistencies in operational practice in a number of areas, which pointed to deficiencies in officer training, supervision and assurance. The areas included: reconnaissance (?recces?) of target

premises; use of non-directed surveillance; obtaining lawful entry to premises; pursuit, cautioning,

questioning, and use of handcuffs. Failure to apply the law correctly and to follow IE guidance in

relation to any and all of these compromises the Home Office and the officers involved, as well as

infringing the rights of the individuals affected.

ETA Figure 12 page 24, of sample raids, 79 carried out under warrant, 3 unclear, 102 "informed consent."

[IlonaM]

Let's try to leave the Daily Mail terms in the gutter where they belong, shall we?

Undocumented migrant covers a multitude of possibilities - overstayer, failed asylum seeker, those in the country without leave for whatever reason etc. It also includes those who haven't had their immigration applications resolved yet.

Let's show others the same respect we'd expect to be shown ourselves whatever their circumstances. The immigration debate needn't be inflammatory.

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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> illegal immigrant is now an "undocumented

> migrant", IlonaM?

>

> Really?

[Angelina]

..

[Jules-and-Boo]

Ilona, it's obviously a sore point, but the term was not created by the Daily Mail.

It's a real term for the very things you describe - or would you prefer everyone was legal, perhaps with deferred legality (once all paperwork is in order)?

It's a bit like being caught without drivers insurance and saying to the police that you're applying for it - it doesn't matter - you don't have it, you're uninsured and driving illegally.

[IlonaM]

Jules it's not a sore point - I've been working in the field for a long time and I've seen how this kind of language affects those who are seeking asylum or seeking to regularize their immigration status. The language used by the certain newspapers, politicians and members of the public can have a devastating effect on the health of those on the receiving end. Like Donald Trump, you might like using the term 'illegals', but it has no reference in law. The 'real term' you rely upon is used as an inflammatory term in the discussion on migration and immigration by particular groups. Those who work in the field, on all sides, chose to use more neutral language.

[Jules-and-Boo]

not everyone's the same - while there may be people who are trying to sort out their citizenshiip and their intentions are good, there are people who are purposefully not and the term illegal does apply. The latter has a devastating effect and you should not undermine because saying so hurts some peoples feelings.

[Otta]

If someone is overstaying on purpose, then I don't think it's wrong to call them an illegal immigrant, because the law says they should no longer be here.

[rendelharris]

It's a fine point and someone will be along in a moment bawling "snowflake generation," no doubt, but the offence caused lies in the way the term "illegal immigrant" makes the person, and not what they're doing, illegal. We don't refer to other offenders against the law as "illegal people," the characterisation of the person as the offence exists solely for immigrants. It's a way of dehumanising. As the holocaust survivor and Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel wisely said, "no human being is illegal."

Just to caution against using such catchall terms, "illegal immigrants" can include those trafficked to Britain to work in the sex trade, victims of forced marriage, those brought to Britain as spouses then divorced...words are powerful and terms do matter.

[Jules-and-Boo]

absolutely RH, the vulnerable and exploited are the result of 'lack of documentation' and those with the intention of those to avoid the proper process.

I have not thought of the term as addressing a person at all but a statement of the fact, as in illegal drivers. Not "he's an illegal driver"

[Jules-and-Boo]

and I believe that checking immigration status actually goes a way to protect the vulnerable, that have been exploited - and helping them.

It's not just about identifying people whose visa has expired. That's really a very superficial way of looking at it.

[rendelharris]

Certain organisations (such as Associated Press) which have ceased using "illegal immigrant" still refer to "illegal immigration" as that refers to the activity, not the person. It is, as I said, a matter of fine distinction. It's against the law to build an extension on the front of your house without planning permission, and officials might well talk of a need to crack down on "illegal extensions" but not "illegal householders," as it's not the householders who are illegal but their behaviour. Immigrants are the only ones I can think of who are referred to individually or en masse as illegal human beings, rather than perpetrators of an illegal action.

[rendelharris]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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> and I believe that checking immigration status

> actually goes a way to protect the vulnerable,

> that have been exploited - and helping them.

> It's not just about identifying people whose visa

> has expired. That's really a very superficial way

> of looking at it.

Good job I don't look at it that way then, and I don't think I've said that I do. I have no problem with proper checks being made and I agree they can be a powerful way of stopping the abuse of unauthorized migrants. However, as per the report I linked to and quoted above, Immigration Enforcement have too often broken the law themselves in undertaking raids without due cause etc. Unfortunately there are plenty of people who might not like an immigrant business in their community (or indeed other immigrants who want to drive out rivals) who will allege to IE that said business is using unauthorised immigrants: it seems from the report that IE have adopted a gung-ho approach to such tipoffs which has carried them too often beyond the boundaries of their remit and indeed the law.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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>, there

> are people who are purposefully not and the term

> illegal does apply. The latter has a devastating

> effect and you should not undermine because saying

> so hurts some peoples feelings.

What's this "devastating effect" of illegal immigrants that have no interest in legalising their status?

[ploberman]

Well done Lavender27.....

You stoked the fire THEN had a cup of tea and your bacon sandwich!