Please read and support your firefighters!!!!

[brum]

Thanks Huguenot, I'm impressed by your research, although I feel that some stats are not relevant - where did you find them?

You have a very strong view of the Union. Yet politics is being played on both sides here - and some clever politicians use statistics very effectively to back up their claims. I suggest you try and take a more unbiased perspective and realise that the firefighters are not so bad as you may think they are.

[Moflo]

Thank you Brum! Sense prevails, I just wish more would actually speak to Firefighters and get the picture instead of reading the clap trap in the tabloids! I am sure some write on here just to be confrontational. But thats what this forum is for I suppose. Lets hope this is resolved soon.

[Kbabe01]

Can i just say that the FFs of Forest Hill and Lewisham that we took donuts to today were very welcoming and prepared to answer any questions anyone walking past had. Every other car tooted in support so they are getting support from somewhere. It was a pleasure to speak to them.

[Kbabe01]

DJKQ how is it you know so much about every FF in London? You say you know what they do? How? Were/are you one? Or are you just spouting what you read/hear in the press?

[Loz]

native Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> djkilla what uni did you go to then ? im in ore of

> you totally

Totally in ore of DJKQ? You must have rocks in your head...

[DJKillaQueen]

LOL....>:D

[Marmora Man]

Brum,

Most of the facts that Hugenot has referred to are available on this thread in papers posted by Boss Boss 999 and myself (I also posted the FBU response paper - about three / four pages back). However, few of those supporting the strike seem to have read them or, if they have read them, haven't yet been able to refute the points made in the LFB papers.

[Moflo]

I have read them MM, both sets of LFB and the FBU. I obviously think that the FBU paper makes sense, you obviously the LFB so we must agree to differ. I am emmotionally involved in this dispute, I have seen the distress that my Son has gone through after a particularly difficult incident, that he goes through when he misses out on the last 5 Christmas's since his son has been born, but he does it because he is dedicated and passionate about his job. He has trained hard and does not object to new working patterns he objects to being sacked because he questions them. He is no different from any other firefighter in this dispute. They all have harrowing stories that the have seen and been involved in. So until you are in their shoes and deal with what they deal with stop spouting about, money, second jobs, sleeping. Its not about those things.

[DJKillaQueen]

As you say Moflo you are emotionally involved but that also means you are not arguing with any objectivity.

It is normal industrial parctise for employers to change contracts from time to time. And it's a fact of life that if you don't sign a new contract you don't get the job. If we all threw a hissy fit every time that happened there'd be few people left in employment. The shift change isn't anything like the big deal some are making out.

Do I like everything in every contract I sign? No I don't. I'd like to have pension rights as part of my contract and other things that your son takes for granted, but like most people I'm thankful to have a job.

[Moflo]

Nobody takes anything for granted! and I object to your comment that I am not objective. If I think something is wrong I will state it, even if it is against my son. I think the strike for bonfire night is a publicity nightmare! But I support his right to do it. As you say most people are thankful for a job, but most people do not put their lives at risk when they go to work and if they do then they should be afforded some respect and at least the curtesy to be allowed to fight for their jobs.

[brum]

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Brum,

>

> Most of the facts that Hugenot has referred to are

> available on this thread in papers posted by Boss

> Boss 999 and myself (I also posted the FBU

> response paper - about three / four pages back).

> However, few of those supporting the strike seem

> to have read them or, if they have read them,

> haven't yet been able to refute the points made in

> the LFB papers.

I ask the question because the source of statistics is interesting. And all are open to interpretation, depending on how they are spun. For example, the first statistic quoted by Huguenot about a 48% drop in the number of fires can be spun as follows:

The massive 48% cut in the number of fires over a ten year period underlines the commitment by London Fire Brigade to reducing the number of fires through its proactive community fire safety campaign, carried out by firefighters who undertake home fire safety checks focussing on the vulnerable in society. What a fantastic result! And this was achieved by firefighters working to the existing shift system!

So, what are the changes actually for?

As I said earlier, the benefits of changing the start time and finish time of the night shift in respect of improving the efficiency of firefighters are not clear to me.... though a long list of carefully spun statistics can be very persuasive!

[native]

i think some of you slating the fireman and women with your intellectual patronising bullshit need some rocks to puff on then maybe you might have some humanity and respect for london's fire brigade , let's see you book reading big worded few get up a ladder or use some cutting equipment to save the lives of those less fortunate than us who prevously or in the future need the sevices of the london fire brigade . i really dont get your arguements against the strike , they are not asking for the world are they .

[DJKillaQueen]

I think the strike for bonfire night is a publicity nightmare!

But you don't think it's a wreckless act designed to put the ffs cause before the saftely of the public on the busiest night of the year? What kind of publicity would it take to convice us all otherwise I wonder lol.

most people do not put their lives at risk when they go to work

So what.....that has nothing to do with any aspect of the dispute. But FYI, of all the risky jobs out there ffs are one of the safest jobs with very low fatality rates, lower than the Police and much lower than construction workers. They are trained to be safe.

they should be afforded some respect and at least the curtesy to be allowed to fight for their jobs.

See this is exactly the kind of comment that get's my back up....This idea that somehow your son's job is more worthy than any debate and therefore 'deserves' special privileges. We musn't touch the fire service..... when it is a normal part of business practise to improve efficiency and change contracts as required (especially public sector services that require tax payers money).

You son earns above the average wage which is a reflection of what is required for the job...(although it still remains most jobs dominated by men are overpaid whilst most sectors dominated by women are underpaid - but that another discussion).

I gave very good reasons why the ffs reaction to a contract change (normal practise elsewhere) is an unreasonable and outdated response and you reply with...oh my son risks his life and blah blah blah. He has more chance of being in a traffic accident than he does of being fatally injured or maimed tackling a fire (although I wish neither ever happens to him of course).

[DJKillaQueen]

I have respect for emergency workers native...what I don't have repsect for are 'bully boy' blackmailing tactics of the Union, like some of the behaviour on the picket lines today and calling a strike on the busiest night of the year, Nov 5th. Did you know some fire stations needed a Police officer in attendance to ensure that pickets didn't stop engines from going out to (emergency) calls. Police officers that could be better used elsewhere.

The Union have had plenty of time to negotiate an acceptable compromise but have failed. What are management expected to do? How long do they have to wait before that are 'allowed' to make any changes (especially with steep public sector cuts coming). FFs are EMPLOYEES not EMPLOYERS. We the tax payers pay their wages. They work for us (something many emergency service workers forget in thinking they provide a 'free' service to the public). And I don't think a small shift change splitting hours evenly is anything like the deal the FBU is making out.....after all, not much to ask for is it!

[Kbabe01]

Bully tactics from the union! Not from Coleman and the rest of Toad Hall then! Do you always believe everything the press write? All youve done is list everything ive read in the daily mail! Are you a reporter?

[DJKillaQueen]

That's not even an argument that dignifies a response unless you want to dismiss the bbc as well.

And I hope you are not being paid for your strike days.

[Kbabe01]

If they were being paid that would really annoy you wouldn't it? Unfortunatly they are not being paid to strike! You can rest easy. Today your taxes were not paying for londons fire fighters.

I will dismiss the BBC if it's reporting utter crap like most. They rely on people like you to not have the sense to not believe all they read.

[native]

i love you djkilla but hey on london tonight this evening they reported that asset firepeople only had 2 weeks training on the job , surely that's not how it should be , it take's a lot longer to train as a firefighter , and they reported that the much loved Mr coleman sold his ass for ?350 which consisted of a luxury hamper including champers , that's not really cricket is it , cheap as chips isnt one no loyalty to the striking firepeople of london , he will be guzzling while the london fire brigade picket outside their stations fighting for what they believe is right . It does suck if you ask me

[DJKillaQueen]

People like me whose taxes pay YOUR wages.......have some respect.

I have plenty of sense but I also have more intelligent responses to those that disagree with me than the ones you are giving here. MM, H and others have posted every document any person needs to read to get a good overview of the arguments from all sides. The union is clearly losing the debate.

You are not hard done by as a profession...not even close. That is why public support is not the great mass you think it should be. The fire service can not remain in some kind of untouchable cocoon because of the self importance some of it's members place on themselves. Cuts have to be made, either through efficiency savings or job losses...you choose.

[DJKillaQueen]

I love you too native lol...Have you seen how much your union boss is paid too? He's lapping it up whilst you guys take all the heat (no pun intended) as well. I don't like it either but bosses of anything are generally as bad as each other when it comes to extravagance.

I agree that fire fighters need more than two weeks training, and then placements with more experienced fire fighters but what option does London have if there's a strike.....poorly trained ffs are better than letting the city burn. Although I'm sure that each crew has an exerienced supervisor too. It's not ideal I agree.

[native]

if your referring to me about the tax you pay pays wages for other's you must have knocked your head darlin seriously . you and other's have envy over the firefighter's plight , border's on an obsession , shocking views , lets hope you and other's dont have to rely on some stand in wannabe firefighter's pumping water on your homes , i dont, they will probably get the wrong address and flood the place , roll on the 5th . nite nite .

[Pearson]

Kbabe01 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bully tactics from the union! Not from Coleman

> and the rest of Toad Hall then! Do you always

> believe everything the press write? All youve

> done is list everything ive read in the daily

> mail! Are you a reporter?

_______________________________________________________

^There's an intelligent response to DJKQ posts. (td)

Do you always believe everything the UNION say?

[Kbabe01]

DJKQ i assure you you do not pay my wages! I am not a public sector worker. Public sector workers do not owe you anymore respect than YOU owe them. You think everyone owes you something because you pay tax? Everyone who works pays tax. You are not the only one.

The fact is you will not listen to anyone with a different opinion. Fire Fighters have posted on here telling you the reason for the strikes and telling you why they think the new shift is a bad idea. Still you refuse to believe anything that is not a written document. Why will you not believe what a worker involved is telling you before you believe press and politicians? Do you not think fire fighters who do this job every day are more equipped to tell us what changes are needed? Shouldnt they have a voice? Or just sack them and let some desk jocky make the decisions.

[Kbabe01]

No Pearson i do not believe everything the Union says. I dont believe much of what is written in the press. I have taken the time to speak to the people involved. I would do the same if it was any other workforce. Ive seen the effect this is having on ffs and i do not believe they deserve to be treated this way. They do an amazing job as do the other emergancy services.

[DJKillaQueen]

Are you drunk native lol? You are clearly either not interested in anything but a slanging match or you really don't have any ability to engage in debate.

Kbabe....where do you think the money comes from to pay for the fire service? Public sector workers serve US, not the other way around. They should respect the public money that keeps them in jobs (and deliver good value for that money) just as I respect the entrepreneurial nouse of someone that can employ me.

The fact is you will not listen to anyone......

Pot calling kettle black I think. I do read the other views but I refute the FFU claims and have explained why I refute them. I have looked and listened to all sides. It is my opinion and it is a well researched opionion.

You don't like it but that doesn't make it misguided and niaive. The truth is that the FFU are entrenched in an outdated attitude and behaviour. Furthermore the debate in this thread is being won by those opposing the strikes, because the FFU debate isn't up to it. MM, H and myself will be making no apology for that any time soon.

Anyway it's all relative because the FFs won't win the dispute and most of them will sign the new contract anyway.