A general thread to discuss Trump

[JohnL]

anyway in order to rival Trump, David Davis apparently had a few

drinks, tried to kiss Diane Abbott and got told where to go.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/09/diane-abbott-tells-brexit-minister-f-attempts-kiss-commons-bar/

[Loz]

Blimey. How many drinks do you have to have before that seems like a good idea??

Mind you, there is a world of difference between an ironic kiss on the cheeks and the full-on tonsil-wobbler.

[Jenny1]

At the risk of veering miles off thread topic....I suspect this was less about the release of long suppressed passions, and more a 'gotcha' moment.

[Earl Aelfheah]

He has told demonstrable lies over and over again, and then furiously attacked anyone who challenges them. He has attacked the media relentlessly and claims that more people trust his statements than they do the media (some polls indicate he may be right on this). He uses his twitter account to intimidate individuals who disagree with him. His tweets reign down upon their target a deluge of death threats and harassment from his supporters. This is how you close down opposition voices in the modern era. He is now setting about using similar tactics against the judiciary.

For those worried about the increasingly autocratic nature of Trump, think about what it is we should be watching for. It's not the familiar form of autocracy which would be recognisable from the middle of the last century. The beginnings of Autocracy today, looks like this.

Trump is dismantling opposition, not formally, because we've built systems to stop that, but he is doing it in new ways more subtle and more suitable to today's era. It still uses intimidation, fear and propaganda, but with the tools available today, tools of new media, alternative facts and gangs of angry internet trolls.

[nxjen]

I am heartened though that there are people willing to stand up to him and to use the law to do so, that the judiciary have asserted their independence to remind him he has to act within the law. Early days I know.

[jaywalker]

It is not that Trump is currently totalitarian. It is that he is probing the possibility.

This is why we should not welcome him here.

BTW how is May different?

[????]

if you think May isn't different from Trump....well. If you think May is probing the possibility of totalitarianism then you really are in a delusional echo chamber - people, especially on the left, really need to get a grip about politics when it doesn't agree with their world view. You can hate the tories, you can think they are divisive and mean and bad for society - but they are NOT totalitarian. That's kindergarten student politics.

[jaywalker]

????, I am glad you do not think Trump and May are Totalitarian as that is exactly what I wrote: 'it is not that Trump is currently totalitarian'. I think sometimes in your rush to trade insults (now I am a child I see) you simply don't pause to read what people write.

It is interesting I think to consider what kind of policies lead in the direction of totalitarianism (something we should perhaps always be vigilant about). I have had enough of Trump but briefly for me these move in the wrong direction:

Cancelling refugee rights Cancelling promises on child refugee rights

Calling judges 'so-called' Not standing up for the independence of the judiciary after the High Court ruling

Building walls against migrants Building walls in Calais to stop migrants

Surrounding yourself with an inner circle of acolytes and giving them extra-ordinary power (powers normally held by ministers or the civil service - the case in both countries)

To add to this, the surveillance society and the May sponsored Internet Bill that has just become law (no idea what Trump will do with this as he has fallen out with the security services).

BTW I see that we will now be required to surrender our EDF passwords to immigration control travelling to the USA. Not at all a worrying development, of course.

[nxjen]

Well no, they're just considering asking for online identities, i.e. Usernames. Though why US immigration think anyone who has posted rabid anti American messages on Facebook is going to meekly complete a form with details of their online alter egos is a bit strange.

[Jenny1]

nxjen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Though why US

> immigration think anyone who has posted rabid anti

> American messages on Facebook is going to meekly

> complete a form with details of their online alter

> egos is a bit strange.

That's a key criticism I've heard of this too. It's another one of these policies that's not actually designed to achieve anything.

[Jenny1]

A good, brief analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of Mike Flynn, written back in December.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/12/making-sense-of-mike-flynn/510059/

[Loz]

jaywalker Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ????, I am glad you do not think Trump and May are

> Totalitarian as that is exactly what I wrote: 'it

> is not that Trump is currently totalitarian'. I

> think sometimes in your rush to trade insults (now

> I am a child I see) you simply don't pause to read

> what people write.

Hmmm. Your not reading very well, yourself. Or even reading yourself very well. You wrote...

It is not that Trump is currently totalitarian. It is that he is probing the possibility. [...] BTW how is May different?

Quids wrote...

if you think May isn't different from Trump....well. If you think May is probing the possibility of totalitarianism then you really are in a delusional echo chamber

So, Quids' summary of what you wrote seems pretty accurate.

As for the rest of your 'evidence' of May's 'totalitarianism', it is pretty weak, to say the least. I think you need a better understanding what totalitarianism actually means.

[jaywalker]

Loz, I know we live in a post-truth world, but ???? wrote:

"You can hate the tories, you can think they are divisive and mean and bad for society - but they are NOT totalitarian. That's kindergarten student politics."

Now, why did you not refer to that in your post about my being unable to read?

[Loz]

jaywalker Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Loz, I know we live in a post-truth world, but ???? wrote:

>

> "You can hate the tories, you can think they are divisive and mean and bad for society - but they

> are NOT totalitarian. That's kindergarten student politics."

>

> Now, why did you not refer to that in your post about my being unable to read?

Let's look at that part in its entirety...

"people, especially on the left, really need to get a grip about politics when it doesn't agree with their world view. You can hate the tories, you can think they are divisive and mean and bad for society - but they are NOT totalitarian. That's kindergarten student politics."

See, Quids wasn't talking about you in particular... he was talking about the people in general and the left in general. That's why I didn't refer to it... because it wasn't talking specifically about you. You just seem - erroneously - to think he is.

So, yes, you are still seemingly unable to read.

[jaywalker]

Well enough of this. Two 'you's in two successive sentences in one paragraph, the first explicitly indexing me, but you say the second refers explicitly not to me? Crikey.

[????]

It's a tedious sidetrack - but the you was generic and pointing out a general flaw of many of the left isn't trading insults - shall we all move on?

[jaywalker]

It is certainly a tedious sidetrack. However, if you use this defence you risk certain things. X is an A, now I will point out the general flaws of A's; but it has, of course, nothing to do with X personally; its just a generic argument. Well, where else have I heard that kind of reasoning?

Moving on, we are in for an interesting day tomorrow, with new immigration orders.

[Jenny1]

I think this is interesting on the way that congressional Republicans view Trump.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/12/us/politics/trump-gop-lawmakers.html

[jaywalker]

ah, Flynn has the 'full confidence of the President'. Well, we will see.

[Jenny1]

I love the way that the phrase 'full confidence' is such a reliable kiss of death.

[Sue]

Jenny1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I love the way that the phrase 'full confidence'

> is such a reliable kiss of death.

:))

[JohnL]

If it all unravels for Trump - UK/May will be left with egg on it's face.

Maybe Merkel keeping her distance is sensible.

[intexasatthe moment]

Jenny - yes ,re kiss of death .

And thanks for link yesterday .I keep wondering what the Republicans are up to . I just can't believe they will let Trump carry on ,have they no shame >

Regarding Flynn - was it him that was reported to have visited Russia ? And Trump said no no ,fake facts etc .He showed me his passport . Or was it someone else ?

[Jenny1]

Hi intexasatthemoment

I don't know if there was a specific Flynn visit to Russia which Trump denied, but Flynn's close contacts in Russia have been public knowledge for a while. His downfall was due to the phone conversations* he had with the Russian Ambassador about sanctions while Obama was still in office. I think that's because of a law which prevents private citizens from engaging in diplomacy. This left him open to blackmail by the Russians.

I imagine there's a hope in the White House that all the 'too close to Putin' baggage that's been weighing them down can be loaded onto Flynn's shoulders now, and will disappear out of the door now he's left.

- Editing to add - *and of course lying about those conversations.

[Jenny1]

As to the Republicans in Congress. I imagine they feel they can work around Trump and advance their legislative agenda. I suspect shame doesn't come into it!