Dulwich MP Helen Hayes votes against the Brexit Bill

[SpringTime]

I voted Leave but I still admire Hayes for her defiance, even though she must've known it'd be a losing vote. She had the conviction and guts to vote the way she did, and should be credited for not wimping out in abstinence.

[Abe_froeman]

It's a problematic claim for any of these MPs that their constituents voted one way or the other. This is because their constituents' votes were counted alongside the rest of Southwark (in the case of Helen Hayes' constituency some with those of the rest of Lambeth).

There is some evidence to indicate the way specific demographic gorups voted so you could try to interpolate the Dulwich and West Norwood vote from its constituent demopgrahy. You';d then have to look at those as a proportion of the total populations Lambeth and Southwark and guess at what their vote was. But there is no accurate way to assert the constituency voted one way or the other.

And even then it was a binary referendum so either way a good chunk of people were going to feel alienated whatever these MPs did last night.

[lbsmith73]

SpringTime Wrote:

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> I voted Leave but I still admire Hayes for her

> defiance, even though she must've known it'd be a

> losing vote. She had the conviction and guts to

> vote the way she did, and should be credited for

> not wimping out in abstinence.

Totally agree, I voted remain it takes guts to stick with your convictions unlike Dianne Abbott, how pathetic and just sums up the Labour Party, completely dysfunctional and going no where. At a time we need a strong opposition we are left with a limp Leader who wouldn't look out of place in a Viz comic. I have voted Labour all my life but am at a loss to see what the serious alternative is to the Tories.

[Zelig]

Shame on Hayes. The vote wasn't about Brexit, thats all done and dusted. The vote was about supporting the Labour Party and leader of the Labour Party and she has not done that. Shame on Hayes.

[Zelig]

Thats the libdem way

[slarti b]

Zelig Wrote:

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> Shame on Hayes. The vote wasn't about Brexit thats all done and dusted. The vote was about

> supporting the Labour Party and leader of the Labour Party

Sorry, I thought the vote was about allowing the Prime Minister to trigger article 50, not a confidence vote on the "leader" of the Labour Party. I think Ms Hayes has properly represented the views of her constituents against a 3 line whip poorly imposed by a weak, naive and inconsistent figurehead.

Corbyn received the type of support he himself gave to the leaders of his own party previously. And of course the Parliamentary Labour Party has already a confidence vote on Corbyn, which he lost by 172 to 40.

Well done Ms Hayes, but I wish we had a proper opposition who could properly challenge the government, time for the LIb Dems to take their place?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

TFFT. I failed to write to Hayes to tell her how I wanted to vote - so I'm glad she voted in the way I wanted.

Zelig Wrote:

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> Shame on Hayes. The vote wasn't about Brexit,

> thats all done and dusted. The vote was about

> supporting the Labour Party and leader of the

> Labour Party and she has not done that. Shame on

> Hayes.

The interests of Corbyn and the interests of the party are not the same. The quicker he is dumped the better.

[civilservant]

all credit to Hayes for having the courage to vote the way she did

Bic Basher Wrote:

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> Kate Hoey voted for Article 50 despite Vauxhall having the largest amount for remaining in the EU.

That is not surprising at all. It's always been a mystery to me how Hoey keeps getting returned in Vauxhall - she's not just a Eurosceptic but also pro-hunting, pro-guns, pro-Unionist, pro-smoking, anti-immigration, ...

[Zebedee Tring]

While Labour was in government, Corbyn was consistently the most rebellious Labour MP, rebelling a total of 428 times. In opposition, he was a little less rebellious, in both absolute and relative terms, but still consistently in the top 10 most rebellious Labour MPs. So his hypocrisy in imposing a three line whip on a vitally important issue that really called for a free vote is breathtaking.

http://revolts.co.uk/?p=932

[kford]

What slarti b said.

[holloway]

What is the point of MPs voting against triggering article 50? It has to happen. I understand certain areas and constituencies were pro-remain but I think MPs need to look at the bigger picture and realise it was a nationwide referendum and the result was to leave. I voted to remain but we should stop messing about now and just trigger it so we can actually start negotiations.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

That's silly. Triggering Article 50 doesn't mean negotiations can start: it means you start the clock to exit ticking and if you don't agree anything in 24 months, you leave with nothing. This stuff is complicated; the UK has lots of partners in this; it's going to take far longer than 2 years if it's going to be done well.

[johnhinton]

I just wanted t add my appreciation for Helen Hayes' principled stand.

Although I doubt she would agree with my views, this is not a bill that Theresa May wanted to let Parliament debate or vote upon. The whole referendum was premised on a desperate appeal by David Cameron to pacify his "bastards", not on the desire to allow the country as a whole to exercise their democratic freedoms. Even before Article 50 is triggered, the vote has done immense damage to the country and worse is to come - this is a profoundly undemocratic government, determined to protect its narrow interests at the expense of the whole country.

[rjsmall]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

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> you leave with nothing.

Not entirely correct as if no agreements are reached then trade agreements would default to WTO agreements.

[rjsmall]

johnhinton Wrote:

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> The whole referendum was premised on a desperate appeal by

> David Cameron to pacify his "bastards", not on the

> desire to allow the country as a whole to exercise

> their democratic freedoms. Even before Article 50

> is triggered, the vote has done immense damage to

> the country and worse is to come - this is a

> profoundly undemocratic government, determined to

> protect its narrow interests at the expense of the

> whole country.

In reality the Conservatives went into the election saying that if they had a majority there would be a referendum on EU membership and when this happened (against the opinion polls) they followed through with the referendum. Again the pollsters got the figures wrong which probably lead to a complacency amongst the politicians on all sides of the house.

Not sure how you can say a democratically elected government acting of the result of a referendum that they said they would hold if elected is "profoundly undemocratic"

[derwentgrove]

> Not sure how you can say a democratically elected

> government acting of the result of a referendum

> that they said they would hold if elected is

> "profoundly undemocratic"

Agreed. Did Helen Hayes vote for the Referendum Bill? If so, I'm not at all clear on what basis her vote against activating Article 50 can be justified in the light of the result. Top marks for the virtue signalling much loved of this neck of the woods, zero marks for consistency, principle or democracy.

[Jenny1]

rjsmall Wrote:

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> default to WTO

> agreements.

Hi rjsmall. But when you make the comparison, as I'm sure you have, between what those agreements would give us, and what we have now, doesn't the end result look so much like 'nothing', that it would make sense to call it that?

[Zebedee Tring]

"Virtue signalling". One of the constantly used insulting Californian pyschobabble clich?s trotted out these days, like "check your privilege". If supporting my MP who votes according to the wishes of her strongly pro Remain constituency and wants to stop her country being totally ruined (unlike her pro Brexit leader) is "virtue signalling", then I'm happy to be described in this way.

As derwentgrove is fond of clich?s, then why not add "get a life!", "whatever" and "I wish!"?

[redjam]

I agree - 'virtue signalling' seems to be a lazy pejorative which actually means standing up for something you believe is right. If that's the case, it's something we should all be doing.

I'm very pleased Helen Hayes voted the way she did. If she hadn't, I'd have voted Lib Dem in the next election; as it is, I'll vote for her again despite my reservations about Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour party as a whole.

[rendelharris]

Well said Zebedee (obviously in making this comment I am virtue signalling and should grow up and get a life).

[Penguin68]

I agree - 'virtue signalling' seems to be a lazy pejorative which actually means standing up for something you believe is right. If that's the case, it's something we should all be doing.

I think 'virtue signalling' is more about those who think that clicking on something to 'like' it, or 'signing' a petition is sufficient to demonstrate that they are on the side of the angels - unlike us anonymous posters Helen Hayes very visibly voted against her party for a principle which presumably she believes in and which matches the views of a majority of her electorate. She isn't virtue signalling here - though most of us of course are. She runs a real risk for her views - that isn't virtue signalling. 'Virtue signaling' was derived to describe those who make risk-free gestures to show virtue. Rather than putting something, at least, on the line for their beliefs.

Ms Diane 'inopportune migraine' Abbott on the other hand avoided risk not to support the Bill but to keep her position in the party.

[BrandNewGuy]

redjam Wrote:

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> I agree - 'virtue signalling' seems to be a lazy

> pejorative which actually means standing up for

> something you believe is right. If that's the

> case, it's something we should all be doing.

Not really, it means showing your circle of friends that you're a good person. It has no effect in the real world and thus is self-indulgent. Agreed, though, that the term can be overused and wrongly used where it isn't deserved. But sometimes it is.

[redjam]

P68, I absolutely agree that Helen Hayes did far more by standing up and being counted, and I applaud her for it. But Derwentgrove was talking about virtue signalling in a wider sense, and it always makes me rather cross. S/he seemed to be saying that by contributing to a debate on the EDF, we are virtue signalling. But we're not all MPs; we can't all vote in parliament. All we can do is add to the public debate, attend demos, sign petitions, join protest groups, support our MP (if we agree with them). It might not be much but for most of us (with jobs, kids etc) it's the best we can do. To denigrate that as self-indulgent virtue signalling is just a way of trying to stifle debate.

[Jenny1]

But Penguin68, do you really believe that approving of someone or something you agree with, if such approval doesn't cause risk to yourself, is in some way worthy of criticism or derision?

And BrandNewGuy do you really think that stating your beliefs, in a context where it's not proven that they will have an impact on the world at large, is self indulgent and worthy of censure?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

derwentgrove Wrote:

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> Top marks

> for the virtue signalling much loved of this neck

> of the woods

Your misuse of the phrase suggests you don't even understand what it means.