Yet Another Crash on Barry Road - Underhill Road Junction

[Thomas Micklewright]

i saw a black mercedes crashed into the railings on barry road - seems to be a black spot for crashes.

[skidmarks]

Idiots guide to road safety budget allocation based on first year rate of return. Which is based on statistics and not who shouts the loudest.

Cost to society of road traffic accidents by severity at 2005 cost rates

Damage only ? ?1,590 (Damage only are not always reported to police)

Slight injury - ?18,130

Serious Injury - ?179,210

Fatal ? ?1,558,290

Ok, let us assume there have been 8 damage only and one slight injury at this junction in the last 36months.

Step 1; Cost of accidents over last 36months

(8 x ?1,590) + (1 x ?18,130)

Average cost per accident = ?30,850

Annual cost per year = ?10,283

Step 2;

The road safety engineer will now examine the collisions and decided how many could have been prevented by engineering measures; obviously not all of them can be prevented from reoccurring but for case we assume that they will be.

I think people have decided there are two options for this junction being signalisation (design and build costs approx ?120k) or softer measures such as improvements to sight lines or banned movements (design and build costs ?35k).

%FYRR (signals) = (?10,283 x 100) / ?120,000 = 8.6%

%FYRR (soft measures) = (10,283 x 100) / ?35,000 = 39%

This is very simplistic as we have assumed all future accidents will be prevented but as pointed out signals have their own inherent risks and the softer measures don?t always work.

[TJ]

I will, hand on heart say I hate nothing more than speed bumps, particularly the ones which even take the bottom off 4x4's, however, on this occasion, I really cannot see why Barry road does not have a raised four way 'bank' at the junction of barry / Underhill as it does at Goodrich / Barry. Surely a simple way to slow people down while maintaining traffic flow in other areas.

I have previously wondered from a legal standpoint, that if authorities have been lobbied about a dangerous junction and there was a subsequent death, if this could be used to pursue the authorities for corporate manslaughter or gross negligence?

Just a thought....

[suzisoo]

I parked in this road two weeks ago for about 20 minutes as I was waiting for my daughter who was visiting a resident.I noticed that drivers were driving at high speeds down this road and overtaking where the roads were narrow. I was so concerned that I got out of the car to make sure it was clear for my teenager to cross, so i am not surprised to hear of these accidents.

[DJKillaQueen]

if authorities have been lobbied about a dangerous junction and there was a subsequent death, if this could be used to pursue the authorities for corporate manslaughter or gross negligence?

In a word...no.

Drivers are the cause of accidents not roads.

[kford]

That's a grey area. Some road design has been proven to be the cause of accidents.

This article is has particular relevance: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/264395.stm

There seems to be a reason why Barry drivers think it's fine to charge down this section of the road. Maybe it's the green traffic light giving a false sense of priority; maybe it's the white lines in the middle of the road, like the ones you get on fast A-roads. Maybe they're just impatient.

Likewise, there seems to be a reason for Underhill drivers to pull out in front of Barry drivers. Maybe it's the tree and car-obscured sightlines; maybe it's the fact it's just a 'give way' and not a 'stop' junction. maybe they're just impatient.

[alice]

if oil has been spilt on a road and the council knows about it but does not clear it up - if an accident follows then yes they can be sued - sure i read about this case somewhere

[ST&NLY]

Barry Road / Upland Road = Everytime I pass through there, it's like playing the lottery of death.

[James Barber]

The East Dulwich Police Safe Neighbourhood Team have spent an afternoon earlier this week out with the speed gun.

Nearly everyone one was driving within the 30mph limit the 6 cars that weren't were very close to the 30mph and drivers very apologetic.

The Police have stated that many people think vehicels are actually travelling much faster than they actually are.

Last night at the Dulwich Community Council they made an offer that if any residents would like to try the speed gun alongside estimating vehicles speeds they'd be very welcome. For East Dulwich if you'd like to try this contact me direct to work out numbers and a useful time.

[DJKillaQueen]

The Police have stated that many people think vehicels are actually travelling much faster than they actually are.

That is a point I have made many times and very useful to see the results of a police speed check.

[kford]

Interesting stats. I crossed the junction this morning. The were no cars parked for 20-30 metres up Barry Road and the improved sight lines made it much easier to get across.

[TJ]

James - The issue is not perhaps the speed travelled, more the speed you are allowed to travel at that particular point?

To my earlier thought about a raised 4 way hump like the Goodrich/ Barry crossing. I don't hear about this area being the same blackspot although of course the road is wider / trees fewer. The raised hump at Underhill / Barry would slow traffic by approx 10mph to 20mph which is no bad thing and would maintain the 30mph limit on the rest of the road.

Just a thought for you - it would seem the electorate and local residents would like to see action and some form of traffic calming at this point. Could be a strong campaigning point with good local support. Not that i am playing politik or anyfink.

[trentk69]

Ok - I must be imagining all of the crashes that I see from my window then? I must also be wildly wrong in my estimations of speed that cars travel up and down the road that I see "speeding" on a daily basis.

Lets all bury our heads in the sand then about this junction - and hope that this problem goes away shall we?

On a side note and slightly cynical; It is also ironic that when you are pulled over by the police they do not take the same attitude "The Police have stated that many people think vehicels are actually travelling much faster than they actually are."

[kford]

I think they're called 'tabletops'. You could get the same effect with a raised zebra crossing, like the one on Peckham Rye outside the electrical shop cafe. That would kill two birds with one stone, by also removing the green traffic light, which, in my opinion, makes Barry drivers think it's all clear from all directions.

[DJKillaQueen]

Could be a strong campaigning point with good local support.

James made the pint earlier that the process by which road/ traffic improvements are considered is such that only data is a consideration, not public/political perception.

I must also be wildly wrong in my estimations of speed

Yes you probably are. The police stood there with a speed gun. How more accurate can you get. If the police pull anyone over for speeding it's because they have an accurrate reading, or camera footage that proves they were speeding.

[DJKillaQueen]

I agree that positioning of the pedestrian crossing might be a factor. It certainly would distract drivers attention away form the junction and to the lights. It seems to be there to serve the small parade of shops too.

[trentk69]

The Police were there in the afternoon, when there would have been a lot of traffic on the road - a natural calming measure. Later on in the evening and during the night, early morning, when most of the crashes I have seen occur, the road is clear, meaning some drivers will speed up and race down the road.

I know how what a speeding car looks like and I see it all the time on this road.

Speed in this case is only a contributing factor - there are other reasons as to why this junction is unsafe. To focus primarlity on speed is a mistake.

[DJKillaQueen]

Well I'd rather take the Police word for it, and most of the crashes reported on here take place during the day.

[trentk69]

I give up.

[cate]

What about reducing the limit to 25?

[DJKillaQueen]

It's a B Road.

[James Barber]

Hi trentk69,

I've arranged a meeting with local Police and council officers end of next week.

I'd encorage you to experience using a Police speed gun - you've nothing to lose and I suspect you'd find it interesting. Let me know if you're interested.

Hi kford,

'tabletops' or 'raised junctions' are incredibly expensive. Typically ?50,000 to ?100,000. The collission rate doesn't justify that level of expenditure compared to other collissions locations. Also Barry Road is a busy bus route and passengers wouldn't welcome many more of these along Barry Road.

One suggestion was to slow vehicels on Underill and Upland Roads approaching Barry Road so I'll ask officers about whether this relatively cheaper devices would help.

Hi cate, DJKillaQueen,

I'd be keen on 20mph. We did have a scheme in flight for the southern end which needs chasing. If it fixes the Etherow/Barry Road junction then perhaps it should be extended northwards.

[kford]

Speed isn't the only issue here though - these recent accidents were caused by stationary vehicles pulling out on moving vehicles. That bus probably wasn't speeding, as there is a stop not far away.

Just tackling speeding motorists (of which there aren't that many, according to your speed gun survey) will not make this junction safe.

I'm convinced the answer lies in better sightlines - an even cheaper option involving double lines of yellow paint extended 30m up Barry Road.

[James Barber]

Hi kford,

We've certainly had one set of double yellow lines painted extending sightlines already at the start of the year but so far they don't appear to have done the job.

I'll ask officers whether more double yellow lines would make a difference.

Our local Police sgt. suspects that the speed cushions on side roads encourage people to drive down the middle of the side roads and do this at speed. If a contributing factor then humps across the whole side roads would help.

[TonyQuinn]

I agree with Kford and have stated so for many years both on here and directly to the council. Nothing seems to be done about giving drivers coming out onto both Barry and Lordship Lane better sightlines, especially as half of Dulwich appears to be driving urban tanks. As well as Underhill and Barry, Upland and Barry is bad too. Meanwhile, Goodrich and Lordship Lane is truly a case of taking a risk with one's life when edging out, that's why I always drive down to Heber, where there's a much clearer sightline. Mr Barber, I'm prepared to spend this weekend painting a few double yellow lines at the relevant danger spots.