English Nationalism

[Alan Medic]

I found this article interesting to read. What do you think of it?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-scottish-referendum-english-nationalism-damaged-union-for-good-a7635796.html

[dbboy]

I won't post the link as it is easy enough to find on You Tube of Tommy Robinson ranting about the enemy within literally following yesterday's attack in Westminster. Talk about exploiting a live situation, utterly unbelievable.

[Earl Aelfheah]

"English politicians have frequently had a tin ear when it comes to other people?s nationalism, imagining that it can be satisfied by material concessions or rebutted by arguments about independence inflicting unacceptable economic damage"

This reminded me of Farage on LBC the other day, giong on about how the Scottish were 'economically illiterate' if they thought they 'could turn their back on their biggest trading partner' (England). The man seems to have no self awareness whatsoever. The hypocrisy around all would be laughable if it wasn't all so serious. The Brexit rhetoric of 'independence', 'self determination', 'taking back control', doesn't sit comfortably with the idea of an unequal union between Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and Wales. I suspect that Scotland will go. Northern Ireland is going to be a difficult situation post brexit. England and Wales are going to slowly decline and London will increasingly operate as a virtual city state. The sense of the rest of the country being left behind is likely to become even more pronounce imo. But you know.. 'will of the people' and all that.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I'm feel increasingly estranged from most of England, outside of the Capital. It feels insular and regressive and ever more illiberal. Maybe time to move to Berlin.

[Louisa]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> I'm feel increasingly estranged from most of

> England, outside of the Capital. It feels insular

> and regressive and ever more illiberal. Maybe time

> to move to Berlin.

You've obviously never been to Totnes.

Louisa.

[JohnL]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> I'm feel increasingly estranged from most of

> England, outside of the Capital. It feels insular

> and regressive and ever more illiberal. Maybe time

> to move to Berlin.

I was always told English Nationalism is dangerous for everyone

(as a Welsh boy).

Back in those days (for all the banter) the Celts were careful to

keep British/English as rather similar.

[malumbu]

I think we saw this amongst the English fans last night

[jaywalker]

'so-called' English fans?

[Otta]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> I'm feel increasingly estranged from most of

> England, outside of the Capital. It feels insular

> and regressive and ever more illiberal. Maybe time

> to move to Berlin.

It's not just London to be fair. Other cities are also pretty cool.

But yes I basically agree. I am a proud Londoner, but an increasingly embarrassed Englishman.

[TE44]

Louisa Wrote:

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> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I'm feel increasingly estranged from most of

> > England, outside of the Capital. It feels

> insular

> > and regressive and ever more illiberal. Maybe

> time

> > to move to Berlin.

>

>

> You've obviously never been to Totnes.

>

> Louisa.

Ha ha ha, I've heard its a great place to

shoplift.

[red devil]

Is it English Nationalism? The headline photo of that article shows Brexiteers flying the Union Jack. The main proponents of Britsih nationalism have always been the English with parts of Ulster and the West of Scotland thrown in. For whatever reason(s) the English have always found it easier to identify with being British than English. The British national anthem still gets played for England teams at most sporting events. The other Home Countries have got their separate identity, so it will be interesting if the Union does indeed break up to see how the English re-identify themselves...

[JohnL]

red devil Wrote:

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> Is it English Nationalism? The headline photo of

> that article shows Brexiteers flying the Union

> Jack. The main proponents of Britsih nationalism

> have always been the English with parts of Ulster

> and the West of Scotland thrown in. For whatever

> reason(s) the English have always found it easier

> to identify with being British than English. The

> British national anthem still gets played for

> England teams at most sporting events. The other

> Home Countries have got their separate identity,

> so it will be interesting if the Union does indeed

> break up to see how the English re-identify

> themselves...

I think they already are - it used to be the union

flag that got flown at English matches - and gradually

changed to flag of St George.

[red devil]

Yes, but many of those flags will also have a Union Jack in one of the 4 corners of the St George flag.

Also, they will sing the National Anthem many times during a game, Rule Britannia too. It's been reported that the England fans (I use that term loosely) didn't sing any songs about the players during the Germany game, instead it was all anti-German/IRA, nationalistic and xenophobic singing and chanting...

[vito]

PLS tomorrow marching in centre town 11am in park lane!!

a part from brexit or no brexit let s not leave the country in the wrong hands..

[JohnL]

red devil Wrote:

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> Yes, but many of those flags will also have a

> Union Jack in one of the 4 corners of the St

> George flag.

> Also, they will sing the National Anthem many

> times during a game, Rule Britannia too. It's been

> reported that the England fans (I use that term

> loosely) didn't sing any songs about the players

> during the Germany game, instead it was all

> anti-German/IRA, nationalistic and xenophobic

> singing and chanting...

I did see a tweet saying

English fans sing anthem

German fans applaud

German fans sing anthem

English fans boo

[craigmelson]

Slight observation ... the "ashamed to be English" "OMG i'm way more liberal than other parts" messages smack of intolerance #IRONY

[JohnL]

craigmelson Wrote:

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> Slight observation ... the "ashamed to be English"

> "OMG i'm way more liberal than other parts"

> messages smack of intolerance #IRONY

I'm Welsh - but our fans can be just as bad.

But as a Welshman I see the anthem of England as Jerusalem not GSTQ

[red devil]

craigmelson Wrote:

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> Slight observation ... the "ashamed to be English"

> "OMG i'm way more liberal than other parts"

> messages smack of intolerance #IRONY

That's a similar line of argument a racist would use by saying ''what about my freedom of speech?''.

With FoS comes responsibility, there are lines you shouldn't cross out of common decency...

[????]

So in summary

Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalism is all a lovely mix of tolerance, univesalism, acceptable national pride and altruism.

English nationalism is all terrible.

In the real world - the ethnic diversity of England and the mixing of different ethnic groups in terms of marriage, relationships, kids, mixed neighborhoods, workplace and schools is MILES and MILES ahead on anywhere else in the UK and Europe.

In the real world - Scotland and NI (and most of Wales) is enormously white and even within those groups Scotland and Northern Ireland's white ethnic populations have huge difficulties in getting along with each other on the basis of whether they are protestant or Catholic- something that ceased to matter in England over a century ago and is laughable insularity

Yet still huge numbers of non-English brits and the so called liberal thinkers of the middle classes go on with this utter tripe about illiberal England and nasty English nationalism. Pure prejudice, ironically

PS Rah moving to Berlin is an easy shift - try Bavaria or any points East other than Berlin if you want to see how wonderfully liberal the Germans are (google how many asylum refuges have been attacked in Germany too) or try anywhere in Spain, Italy other than the big cities if you want to see assimilation and liberal views on race, good luck finding them

[Alan Medic]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Yet still huge numbers of non-English brits and

> the so called liberal thinkers of the middle

> classes go on with this utter tripe about

> illiberal England and nasty English nationalism.

> Pure prejudice, ironically

Did you read the article Quids? If so, what exactly do you disagree with? It makes a lot of sense to me.

[JohnL]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yet still huge numbers of non-English brits and

> the so called liberal thinkers of the middle

> classes go on with this utter tripe about

> illiberal England and nasty English nationalism.

> Pure prejudice, ironically

I was always warned about it in a way that said if

English nationalism comes to be the UK will fall

apart and Wales will be on it's own at the mercy of

the Crachach (the english speaking welsh did not trust

the welsh speaking artist types in Cardiff then).

So self interest of English speaking Welsh people really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crachach

[????]

Defining english nationalism as wanting to go back to 1960 with no proof other than repeating what the guardian (and many remainers) do constantly

Wrapping up Brexit with some fear of 'the other' when for example polling shows that just 5% of the population think EU nationals should leave the UK

It's really 'liberal' fear & projectionm bought on by Brexit, of what they don't know/understand and have no intention of trying to by mixing with the working class of this country (of all ethnic groups by the way).

We may be a small C conservative country but the NF, the BNP have always failed politically and UKIP, by continental standards a pretty mainstream right wing party rather than anything more sinister, are polling about 12&

It's 'liberal' knicker, wetting hysteria....

[Jeremy]

I know I'm stating the obvious, but the word "nationalism" actually has rather different meanings depending on context.

When we talk about English nationalism, we're mainly talking about far right politics and extreme patriotism. Scottish nationalism is focussed on self governance, and dominated by left wing policies.

[????]

Whose the 'we' Jeremy - practically all these articles feature pictures of pretty average english people with the Cross of StGeorge often at Brexit rallies - the whole inference and tone and narrative is that any form of English nationalism is dangerous, when in reality most of the actual evidence points to England, with its many faults and far from being perfect, as more mixed, tolerant and open society than anywhere else in the UK and Europe. Stop believeing in all the shit the Guardian publishes and the middle class doyens of the EDF repeat ad infinitum. Stats show we have more mixed race marriages; dual heritage kids and a better spread of ethnic groups in different jobs and positions (although still not perfect by any means) than most of Europe; European surveys shows our support for curbs on immigration lower than places like Germany - even post brexit; and anecdotally, out of the big cities, i see far more signs of integration even in provincial England than i do in the capital cities of most of Europe including Edinborough, Dublin and Belfast (Cardiff is bit more cosmopolitan). When people in Belfast & Glasgow stop beating the shit out of each other based on their religious heritage they can maybe start lecturing us english on our dangerous and petty nationalism.

[????]

PS most of that proper melting point mixing is among the working classes by the way, not the impeccably liberal hideously white middle class metros