Student Protest

[Brendan]

It depends on what the economy needs and what type of economy we want/need. (Although unfortunately I think these decisions have already been made for us and we have bugger all choice in the matter) You don?t need a degree to sell houses. Or to sell shares for that matter. I would however start to get pretty fucking concerned if the people doing social work or teaching our children didn?t have them.

Reading the press of late though, I truly hope that the people who think that the only issue here is petulant yoof demanding an education never went to university themselves because they are demonstrably not intelligent enough to have made it through any worthwhile selection process.

[????]

I think a reasonable number of people teaching our kids don't have a proper formal degree actually ...but you need a functioning healthy economy and a state proeperly funded and financed to pay for all of it and demographics and technology means that the bills getting bigger just to stand still and what we pay now is unsustaianble going forward as a huge amount of it is paid for by loans. No money tree yet so making state spending susutaianable for the benefit of us all is a tough but needed discipline. You need bankers and estate agents tax revenues for that....until we find that money tree.

[Brendan]

Well if nothing else has come from this at least it has shown that there is one worthwhile use for the royal family. To make an amusing target for rioting anarchists.

[Brendan]

Do you want to grow old in a country with a functional population who are trained appropriately to keep the entire shebang running and more importantly are able to enjoy decent stable lifestyles?

Or would you conversely want to spend the last 30 years of your life in a place where if you?re rich you can have a decent standard of living but otherwise your day to day life will be a constant battle with the consequences of dysfunction in a population unskilled and consequently unable to have improved what is already a completely skewed exploitative and unfair society?

But you go tell the kids what?s what. You?re very sensible and mature and know best for them. We?re not made of money are we.

[????]

Nope we're not. Tough as that is. So we have to think of different ways of funding, which is why Labour originally set up an independent commission, whose reccomendations the governemnt has now acted on with some watering down. Your idealism and sentiment is noble and completley impractical. Let m know when you can suggest how we fund a decent society going forward...until then our realists will have to swallow accusations of selfishness etc from those with now no practical alternative - my 3 kids are state educated and will continue to be so it will effect me big time.

I don't want to grow up in state that's gone bust that's especially disatrous for us all and the poor more than the rich.

[Brendan]

All this money that we?re going to be lend our kids to pay for their education. Where?s that coming from then?

When they start paying it back are they going to see the benefit? Perhaps they may use the proceeds to educate their children for free.

[Brendan]

We have an entire society aresfuked back to the stoneage because of debt and one of our solutions is to force the next generation into debt instead?

[????]

Well we put them, and those that wouldn't benefit from Higher Education (Directly, not in terms of employees), into debt by the other way. And given that an independent commsion and actual real MPS who have looked at the books have reluctantly gone against a manifesto commitment not I suspect because they are malluable,naive tory dupes but out of a sense of reality, it beats two slackers conjecturing on the Internet.

[Brendan]

But, Shirley if we are broke we don't have the cash to lend them anyway without borrowing it from someone. (why don't we just take it as a social investment)

We aren't made of money.

[????]

because in the longer term, and this is the real issue for state spending beyond the immediate budget concerns, the loans or whatever we call them being paid back start to kick in on the finances and go off book or whatever, If not without a massive improvemnet in tax take the markets (*boo hiss exit stage left), where, and sadly not the money tree, we get our debt to pay for all this, look at our spending commitments and think that's not sustainable and either stop lending or charge more, living beyond your means gets to bite you in the end and that's what most of the western world is finding anytime soon......

[????]

Though the usual suspects seem utterly incapable of comprehending this

[SeanMacGabhann]

Except countries are not like households and historicallly require and built empires on debt. A country which ?lived within it?s means? is effectlvely stagnant and dead in the water

Debt in itself isn?t bad ? what has the markets spooked is they invented ways of packaging debt so no-one knew who owes what ? then when that blows up in their face they get spooked and start looking at small countries and start charging them exhorbatant rates, crippling them in the most undemocratic fashion imaginable, creating further turmoil.

I don?t have an answer, nobody does, but just saying debt is bad and markets need to be assuaged will save us seems overly simplistic, even if it?s technically true

[????]

Yup. That sort of debt is needed for Capital Structural things. Like a road, a hospital, an aircraft carrier, a cross-rail project, a new school...it's a sort of mortgage. But getting debt for an open ended cheque to pay for the HE for a generally privelliged but significant section of the population is like getting a mortgage to pay for a gardener. The debst got too big, people don't want to lend it anymore without a huge premium or asking what the long term plans are.

As I say, there ain't no money tree for any of this if not we could avoid the nasty pesky markets and actuallly in reality most sovreaighn debts is with other countries. The debt issue was alawys there and growing the f*ck up by global financial institutions has just made everyone have to face it now...it was coming in one way or the other at some point soon. That's what happens when staes vastly out spend their income on top of massive debt already - the big state loved of the left is finshed IMO, non politicl point just reality of economics.

[SeanMacGabhann]

wasn't it the big state that stepped in and prevented the whole economic house of cards from collapsing?

economics isn't a natural law like physics btw - it's a tool we use

[????]

I'm not some anarcho-syndicalist Sean. State as is sovreighn states stepped in to guarantee and underwrite their banks - juries out on this still but looks to have probably worked (not in Ireland though). Part of the reason it has worked is because the state(s) have also said ok we'll address our ubnsustainable spending going forward and dramatically.... that was part of the step in, and if that fails we get credit crunch part 2

Big bureacratic expensive state responsible for nearly everything is something entirely different, I still belive in a central govt etc, etc.

[????]

We can, of course, increase the states take by increased taxation as an alternative......

[Tarot]

Can students get places around the world, or Europe,

Is it any cheaper in France, Germany .India.?

[huncamunca]

Good performance. I am glad to see the students getting off their arses after the past couple of decades of apathy - even if it is for their own narrow agenda. Even better to see non students getting involved.A good start, but they need to keep the pressure on and realise that violence and disorder can sometimes be a legitimate response, in spite of the reactionaries mantra.

The Lib Dems opportunist filth are now unelectable for a generation, whatever happens next.Everyone of you LibDem voters have a hand what you have witnessed in the past few weeks.

[huncamunca]

Santerme Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sad and pathethic on behalf of the scum bags who

> hijack events

>

> Remarkable restraint on the part of the police

>

> The downward spiral continues

yes,they havent killed anyone yet. well done you coppers.

[Keef]

I basically agree with Jeremy's earlier post. I went to uni, and had a good laugh, and didn't really take it seriously. Now part of me thinks, if I did it, why shouldn't the next generation. However, unfortunately times have changed, and more and more students have been going to uni in the last 10 years.

Problem is, if we are going to have less students going to uni, we need an attractive alternative. More proper apprenticeships perhaps, that will actually lead to a proper job with some prospects.

[Santerme]

huncamunca Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Santerme Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Sad and pathethic on behalf of the scum bags

> who

> > hijack events

> >

> > Remarkable restraint on the part of the police

> >

> > The downward spiral continues

>

> yes,they havent killed anyone yet. well done you

> coppers.

I'm sure you feel better for that little outburst

Pat yourself on the back

[Brendan]

As with most things Quids, I comprehend perfectly well. I just don?t see how borrowing on behalf of our children now and then lumping them with the burden of paying it back is in any way justifiable.

[huncamunca]

Santerme Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> huncamunca Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Santerme Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Sad and pathethic on behalf of the scum bags

> > who

> > > hijack events

> > >

> > > Remarkable restraint on the part of the

> police

> > >

> > > The downward spiral continues

> >

> > yes,they havent killed anyone yet. well done

> you

> > coppers.

>

>

> I'm sure you feel better for that little outburst

>

> Pat yourself on the back

I have, thank you.

[Keef]

It's difficult to know exactly what is going on with the police. I don't think that overall they've been heavy handed, but equally, there was a guy on the radio this morning who'd been smacked in the head with a truncheon, and (according to the reporter), had blood streaming down his face.

That isn't really on.

[????]

But Brendan you don't seem to be saying anything other than 'terrible'. It still has to be paid for. So the state pays it (ie everyone) including those who never went themselves and whose children won't. You still haven't told me how we pay for it? Easy to say ooh cuts on higher education horrid. Simply - how do we pay for a growing percentage of a growing population going to ever more expensive universities when there are some more important areas like a general education and the populations health and retirement provision which are growing in cost massively in real terms becuase of demography and technology? The mortgage just can't keep get bigger. You don't even want to make a hypothetical tough choice on the internet. It's not just the tories having a bit of fun it's a stark reality for which eveyone just seems to tut their head and say "oh no not HE no, no; nor benefits of course; the Film Council how short sighted; etc etc etc