8 June

[DulwichFox]

Jeromy Corbyn refuses to comment on Labour's policy on Trident..

..but on a much more important subject plans to introduce 4 more Bank Holidays

to unite the countries of the UK.

Let's all dust down our old Duffle Coats and Donkey Jackets and Unite to sing the Red Flag.

#Dinosaur

DulwichFox

[Loz]

Well, the idea of four more bank holidays is no bad thing. But three of the proposed dates fall in March/April - the time of the year where we don't need any more.

Corbyn finally comes up with a good idea, then cocks it up. Sigh.

[Otta]

If we did have these new holidays, is there anything to stop us moving maybe the early May holiday to a later date, or are they somehow fixed?

[nxjen]

The idea of more bank holidays is great for those who will get paid on these extra holidays but will it benefit those on zero hours contract and those paid low rates on an hourly basis? I'm not sure of the current legislation.

On another topic, if Marine Le Pen wins the second round of the French election, and everything seems possible these days, I do not want to remain in the EU.

[JoeLeg]

If Le Pen wins the Presidency France isn't going to remain in the EU either, I suspect. There's a lot of popular/populist support for a Leave vote over there.

[Otta]

Fortunately she's very unlikely to win.

[red devil]

In France the young are more likely to be anti-EU and the baby boomers more pro-EU, completely the opposite of the Brexit vote. A lot was said about the domino effect of Brexit, Trump and then Le Pen, but the French were always more likely to go against what the 'Anglo-Saxon world' had done...

[BrandNewGuy]

... although Macron's stint as an investment banker for Rothschild won't have helped him in that regard. What this vote does have in common with Brexit and Trump is the marginalisation of the traditionally dominant parties.

[red devil]

I agree, it's another form of 'populism', just not the far right-wing/nationalistic type that was forecast. We're going to have to get used to these populist surges, a product of the social media age. Macron came from nowhere in the space of a year...

[JohnL]

May has gone very quiet recently. Some saying she's gone to ground after a few bad days.

A good opposition would have her on the ropes.

[JohnL]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jeromy Corbyn refuses to comment on Labour's

> policy on Trident..

>

> ..but on a much more important subject plans to

> introduce 4 more Bank Holidays

> to unite the countries of the UK.

>

> Let's all dust down our old Duffle Coats and

> Donkey Jackets and Unite to sing the Red Flag.

>

> #Dinosaur

>

> DulwichFox

But May is just itching to fire those Nukes as a first strike in an extreme situation (like someone criticises her leather trousers at G20) - Kaaapppoowww.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-nuclear-weapons-first-strike-michael-fallon-general-election-jeremy-corbyn-trident-a7698621.html

[Jenny1]

red devil Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I agree, it's another form of 'populism', just not

> the far right-wing/nationalistic type that was

> forecast.

In some ways agreed. But I think the differences between Trump/Brexit and Macron are more striking than the similarities. Both have an 'expect the unexpected' quality for sure - but Trump/Brexit is almost defined by being 'anti-expert', whereas Macron is the archetypal intellectual.

[Otta]

France respect intellectuals in general. Here it's almost seen as a mark of shame now to know what you're talking about.

[Jenny1]

...aside from the obvious political difference of course.

[Jenny1]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> France respect intellectuals in general. Here it's

> almost seen as a mark of shame now to know what

> you're talking about.

Cross posted. Absolutely. And I envy France this.

[BrandNewGuy]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> France respect intellectuals in general.

Not sure how much this is true any more ? you hear quite a lot of sneaking regard for what the French see as Anglo-Saxon 'get up and go', in contrast to French stasis. And many French people think, rightly or wrongly, that the paternalistic and technocratic experts of the postwar French elite have got them into the mess they're in.

[rendelharris]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> France respect intellectuals in general. Here it's

> almost seen as a mark of shame now to know what

> you're talking about.

As Frederic Raphael (I think) once said, England is the only country where being called clever (as in "too clever by half") is an insult.

[Jenny1]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> you hear

> quite a lot of sneaking regard for what the French

> see as Anglo-Saxon 'get up and go', in contrast to

> French stasis.

But so far Macron seems to have successfully combined the 'get up and go' with the intellectualism. A good combo, surely.

And many French people think,

> rightly or wrongly, that the paternalistic and

> technocratic experts of the postwar French elite

> have got them into the mess they're in.

I'm sure that's right. But I think Macron's combination of the pragmatic and the intellectual might put him into a new bracket which will distance him from these concerns. Of course lots of French people will be resistant to his ideas - but I suspect more will support him.

[Jenny1]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> As Frederic Raphael (I think) once said, England

> is the only country where being called clever (as

> in "too clever by half") is an insult.

I wonder where this prejudice comes from? I bet it's a relatively 'modern' thing - nineteenth century maybe? Does it go with the birth of schools for the elite that focused on creating 'empire builders' on the sports field rather than scientists ?

[rendelharris]

Jenny1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rendelharris Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> >

> > As Frederic Raphael (I think) once said,

> England

> > is the only country where being called clever

> (as

> > in "too clever by half") is an insult.

>

> I wonder where this prejudice comes from? I bet

> it's a relatively 'modern' thing - nineteenth

> century maybe? Does it go with the birth of

> schools for the elite that focused on creating

> 'empire builders' on the sports field rather than

> scientists ?

I think it's a lot to do with the class system - in a society where high political and military position was more predicated on one's birth than one's abilities the clever person was seen as a pushy upstart trying to usurp the natural order.

[JohnL]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think it's a lot to do with the class system -

> in a society where high political and military

> position was more predicated on one's birth than

> one's abilities the clever person was seen as a

> pushy upstart trying to usurp the natural order.

Clever is a bit of an insult though - I wouldn't take

it as a complement - it means you can do very well

with tactics but not with strategy.

Wise is the word for for long term knowledgeably

but you don't hear many people called that. Maybe

because most people acclaimed as brilliant (especially

intellectually in politics) fail eventually.

Maybe the British realise that or maybe English

just has too many words.

-

[????]

Foooking hell the The tories 10% ahead in Wales.....WALES!

[????]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jenny1 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > rendelharris Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > >

> > >

> > > As Frederic Raphael (I think) once said,

> > England

> > > is the only country where being called clever

> > (as

> > > in "too clever by half") is an insult.

> >

> > I wonder where this prejudice comes from? I bet

> > it's a relatively 'modern' thing - nineteenth

> > century maybe? Does it go with the birth of

> > schools for the elite that focused on creating

> > 'empire builders' on the sports field rather

> than

> > scientists ?

>

> I think it's a lot to do with the class system -

> in a society where high political and military

> position was more predicated on one's birth than

> one's abilities the clever person was seen as a

> pushy upstart trying to usurp the natural order.

The insult/anti-illectual thing was/is to do with the abstract intellectualism of philosophy I think - we've always been fine with the more pragmatic academic subjects

[Jenny1]

???? Wrote:

the insult/anti-illectual thing was/is to do with

> the abstract intellectualism of philosophy I think

> - we've always been fine with the more pragmatic

> academic subjects

I'd disagree with that actually ????. If you think back to the eighteenth, nineteenth and even early twentieth centuries most of the British innovators in the fields of engineering and medicine had to go to Germany, or sometimes France, to get an education. We were obsessed with the supremacy of 'The Classics' in higher education for a long time, to the detriment of science and technology. Scotland was ahead of England in that regard.

As to Wales and the Tories. Shocking.

[jaywalker]

See that Lib Dem membership is rising exponentially - there could be surprises yet.

Meanwhile, anti-intellectualism is a condensation of multiple factors (i.e. it over-determined): it rains a lot here (cold water on abstract ideas), we style ourselves as practical people of affairs, the industrial revolution made us self-certain about our practicality, we are protestant and have that ethic, we have an ambivalent relation to the French (whose language is more precise and whose tradition is more cerebral (thought) whilst yet also more visceral (cuisine)), we won against the Germans so their philosophy is rubbish, we took from the Scottish enlightenment a certain scepticism (Hume) without understanding its depth, the ruling class survived the late C18th, we established no great artistic traditions (in music between the great Purcell and the great Britten, in painting between cave dwellers and Bacon), the public school phenomenon, we stifled women's voices until very recently, we are in train to the special idiocies of American pragmatism, the Church of England, we still believe in monarchies, cricket. Perhaps above all, we established English as a universal language, so thought that it expressed the universal (oh dear oh dear; whereas the French were able to problematize their own categories of thought). A certain na?ve positivism and honest pragmatism amounting to no more than bad faith and cultivated stupidity.