8 June

[Lordship 516]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> The frog that must be kissed..........good article

> on the DUP arrangement:

>

> http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-d

> up-s-crush-on-britain-will-end-badly-1.3122516

A good commentary...but as you & I know, O'Toole was being overly soft & kindly in his description of the DUP. The rest of the UK will find out the hard way.

[Alan Medic]

The Queen's Speech today. I wonder what she will talk about. Still no agreement with the DUP.

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2017/06/19/the-tories-can-govern-without-the-dup-just

[JoeLeg]

BrexitBrexitBrexitBrexit....

The DUP will support the Queens Speech of course, no point trashing the whole show before they've had a chance to extract their price. What happens a year from now, who knows?

I genuinely doubt there will be a GE before the negotiations are done. It's in no ones interest, unless of course the wheels totally come off with the DUP for some reason. Which is not impossible.

[rendelharris]

Great description of the DUP the other day (can't remember who, could have been Frankie Boyle): "They're the paramilitary wing of the Old Testament."

[Lordship 516]

These are Thearse May's new mates .....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/northern-ireland-dup-mp-uvf-terror-flags-outcry-uproar-emma-little-pengelly-south-belfast-a7800846.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gary-haggarty-murder-terror-offences-ulster-volunteer-force-belfast-a7804371.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/loughinisland-shooting-police-officers-colluded-with-loyalist-gunmen-who-gunned-down-six-catholics-a7072261.html

[Loz]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

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> These are Thearse May's new mates .....

>

> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nort

> hern-ireland-dup-mp-uvf-terror-flags-outcry-uproar

> -emma-little-pengelly-south-belfast-a7800846.html

>

> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gary-ha

> ggarty-murder-terror-offences-ulster-volunteer-for

> ce-belfast-a7804371.html

>

> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lou

> ghinisland-shooting-police-officers-colluded-with-

> loyalist-gunmen-who-gunned-down-six-catholics-a707

> 2261.html

what do the second and third links have to do with the PM?

[rendelharris]

Given that the DUP apparently support the flying of UVF flags, quite a lot I'd say:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/northern-ireland-dup-mp-uvf-terror-flags-outcry-uproar-emma-little-pengelly-south-belfast-a7800846.html

[Loz]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> Given that the DUP apparently support the flying

> of UVF flags, quite a lot I'd say:

>

> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nort

> hern-ireland-dup-mp-uvf-terror-flags-outcry-uproar

> -emma-little-pengelly-south-belfast-a7800846.html

Extremely tenuous, to say the least. If you believe that, and you were in any way consistent, you'd have say Corbyn is 'mates' with some pretty unpleasant terrorist individuals as well.

And I'm pretty sure you'd never say that.

[rendelharris]

Loz Wrote:

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> Extremely tenuous, to say the least. If you

> believe that, and you were in any way consistent,

> you'd have say Corbyn is 'mates' with some pretty

> unpleasant terrorist individuals as well.

>

> And I'm pretty sure you'd never say that.

I don't understand, what is "tenuous" about the fact that the DUP, with whom May is consorting to remain in power, offer tacit support to a terrorist group?

I don't deny in the slightest that Corbyn has certainly allied himself with some distasteful groups in the past in a way which I feel calls his judgement into question. However, he's not currently hoping to run the country with the support of such groups in such a manner that he will have to make concessions to their demands to remain in power. There's the difference.

[Loz]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> I don't understand, what is "tenuous" about the fact that the DUP, with whom May is consorting to

> remain in power, offer tacit support to a terrorist group?

Nothing at all. But LL's post suggested, and you backed up, that because she was consorting with the DUP, she now is considered 'mates' with an ex-Loyalist paramilitary with a lot of blood on his hands and some extremely dodgy NI police offices from 1994.

Which is why I didn't mention LL's first link - that one seemed a pretty fair call. But the other two? Yes, very, very tenuous.

[Lordship 516]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lordship 516 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > These are Thearse May's new mates .....

> >

> >

> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nort

>

> >

> hern-ireland-dup-mp-uvf-terror-flags-outcry-uproar

>

> >

> -emma-little-pengelly-south-belfast-a7800846.html

> >

> >

> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gary-ha

>

> >

> ggarty-murder-terror-offences-ulster-volunteer-for

>

> > ce-belfast-a7804371.html

> >

> >

> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lou

>

> >

> ghinisland-shooting-police-officers-colluded-with-

>

> >

> loyalist-gunmen-who-gunned-down-six-catholics-a707

>

> > 2261.html

>

> what do the second and third links have to do with

> the PM?

UVF --> DUP --> The interim PM, who must have an idea about their connections by now..? ...and is prepared to have a convenient arrangement with them to keep her in power..? ...what price power..what price peace..?

...although it seems she is having second thoughts...DUP pushing for a hard bargain... Now being termed 'Arlene's Killer Deal'...amnesty for all their murdering friends plus loads of dosh [to make up for their Cash for Ash scam, I suppose]; May will be DUPed as will the DUP - No PM has the authority to grant any amnesty, particularly not for political convenience & power politics - or have they...?

Better she would resign rather than sup with DUP. No need to do any deal with them as they will always support her against Jeremy Corbyn getting his hands on the levers of power. You couldn't say the same for Johnson, Gove & other ToryBots, though.

[Lordship 516]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rendelharris Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > I don't understand, what is "tenuous" about the

> fact that the DUP, with whom May is consorting to

> > remain in power, offer tacit support to a

> terrorist group?

>

> Nothing at all. But LL's post suggested, and you

> backed up, that because she was consorting with

> the DUP, she now is considered 'mates' with an

> ex-Loyalist paramilitary with a lot of blood on

> his hands and some extremely dodgy NI police

> offices from 1994.

>

> Which is why I didn't mention LL's first link -

> that one seemed a pretty fair call. But the other

> two? Yes, very, very tenuous.

Only tenuous if you want it to be.

If you can see the connection between the DUP link to the UVF in the first link then the other two links just serve to demonstrate just what the UVF represent in reality. I know this, you know this & May knows this; yet she continues to consort with these awful people. Hopefully she will soon dump them and see them off.

Rendel's point about Corbyn is apposite; Corbyn has travelled many roads in his life but he has always been true to peace & mediation. He has never condoned violence; in fact he has in the past regularly condemned the IRA violence, as he also condemned so-called Loyalist violence & violence by the British Army also. The establishment don't like this & want to punish him for it.

May is flirting with a situation that is not only unethical but down right dangerous and has the capacity to derail years & years of hard won peace in NI. Consorting with the DUP/UVF keeping her in power is not worth that price.

Listen to Sir John Major - regarded as a principled hero in both countries who in the face of huge opposition proceeded with the peace proposition in NI even though he depended on Unionist votes for his survival.

[Loz]

If someone posted a link to Corbyn meeting Sinn Fein and then two more listing a couple of IRA atrocities you would be first to squeal like a stuck pig, L516.

Or maybe not, since you regard Martin McGuinness as "a patriot & a great man".

[JoeLeg]

You may have a point there Loz, but I think it's fair to say that while Corbyn could've been more emphatic in his disavowal of violence once he reached the leadership (he didn't handle it very well), there's a lot of people looking the other way over the DUP's history of links to terrorism.

As I once commented on another thread, no one has come out of Northern Ireland with their hands clean, so it's probably naive to expect any political party from there to be a paragon of virtue. Personally I feel the DUP are far more dangerous for the things they want to do, rather than what they have done in the past.

[Earl Aelfheah]

If Corbyn had tried to form a coalition with Sinn Fein (in asome alternate reality where they might agree to sit in parliament), the press would have been calling it treason. The Tories would have been screaming 'terrorist sympathiser' all over the place. The same people who seem OK with the DUP deal would have been frothing at the mouth and swooning in a fit of hysteria. And quite rightly. The question is why are they sitting quietly whilst May does a deal with a group linked to NI paramilitaries (climate change deniers, anti abortionist, homophobes at that). The Tories are morally moribund.

[uncleglen]

All the terrorism stuff aside, the DUP are loyalists and Sinn Fein (which probably accounts for majority of the 56% soft brexiteers) are not, therefore it makes sense to join with the DUP. And as for anti-abortionist and homophobes etc- that applies even more so to Catholics etc.

Corbyn is a terrorism apologist, (as is John McDonnell) and has shown himself to be an agitator feeding off the misery of the Grenfell tower disaster.

[Lordship 516]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If someone posted a link to Corbyn meeting Sinn

> Fein and then two more listing a couple of IRA

> atrocities you would be first to squeal like a

> stuck pig, L516.

>

> Or maybe not, since you regard Martin McGuinness

> as "a patriot & a great man".

All of these issues have to be examined in context.

The reason that the PIRA came into existence was because the Unionists lead by Paisley & his acolytes had NI in an iron grip & disallowed democratic rule in NI. They resisted people having votes in local elections until 1968 & disadvantaged Catholics/republicans education, housing, jobs etc. Catholics were regarded as second class citizens and were virtual serfs in NI.

When McGuiness was offered a reasonable chance of peace he grasped it with both hands to the extent that he & Paisley became almost blood brothers.

The DUP chucked Paisley out because they could not leave the past go and want to subvert the peace & control NI in their own twisted image.

These are the people that Wheatfield May is seeking to consort with. It will end in disaster for her but worse still it could end in disaster for the peace in NI.

[Lordship 516]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> All the terrorism stuff aside, the DUP are

> loyalists and Sinn Fein (which probably accounts

> for majority of the 56% soft brexiteers) are not,

> therefore it makes sense to join with the DUP. And

> as for anti-abortionist and homophobes etc- that

> applies even more so to Catholics etc.

> Corbyn is a terrorism apologist, (as is John

> McDonnell) and has shown himself to be an agitator

> feeding off the misery of the Grenfell tower

> disaster.

It is very true that many Catholics are anti-abortion - this is for reasons of principle which is their democratic right but the vast majority of Irish people are in favour of LGBT rights as Ireland were the first country to approve gay marriage with an overwhelming majority in favour.

You say the DUP are loyalists - this is not quite true; they SAY they are Loyalists & bang great drums every now and again to proclaim loudly about it but they are loyal to an England & in more recent times to a UK that is long gone in the mists of history. They are loyal to William of Orange [who was at least a bi-sexual but they don't like that said]and all that he stood for and funnily enough he stood for something much different that the concept of the UK that now exists.

If they were really loyalists they would engage in the democratic process that has been practiced throughout the UK for many years now and also participate in a co-operative manner with Her Majesty's Government to render NI a viable & peaceful place for all citizens to live with equality & harmony.

It makes no sense to join with the DUP and that will come to light in time. Just ask Sir John Major, ask all the UK politicians that ever had to try to reason with these neanderthal minded bigots. As the Bible often says "It shall come to pass"

[JoeLeg]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> All the terrorism stuff aside, the DUP are

> loyalists and Sinn Fein (which probably accounts

> for majority of the 56% soft brexiteers) are not,

> therefore it makes sense to join with the DUP. And

> as for anti-abortionist and homophobes etc- that

> applies even more so to Catholics etc

Err, no. You can't stick a piece of paper between the two factions on the social issues. You really need to educate yourself further on the DUP.

> Corbyn is a terrorism apologist

No, he's a naive man who tries to see both sides of the argument and encourage dialogue. He has handled questions on it appallingly, but he isn't what you portray him as. Then again you do like to paint the world in dayglo colours of your own prejudice.

(as is JohnMcDonnell

He is, I'll agree.

and has shown himself to be an agitator

> feeding off the misery of the Grenfell tower

> disaster.

Have you been drinking this early in the day again? I know your job causes you no end of anguish as you watch society decline from the moral high ground you feel it once occupied (but never did), but maybe leave it until after midday eh?

I can think of no other explanation for that fatuous claim than that you are drunk.

[rendelharris]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> uncleglen Wrote:

> Have you been drinking this early in the day

> again? I know your job causes you no end of

> anguish as you watch society decline from the

> moral high ground you feel it once occupied (but

> never did), but maybe leave it until after midday

> eh?

> I can think of no other explanation for that

> fatuous claim than that you are drunk.

Uncle's obviously fallen for a lying meme that's been doing the rounds, a photo of the "Day of Rage Bring Down the Government" flyer with a statement that it's a direct call from McDonnell, ignoring the fact that McDonnell has called for a demo on July 1st, not last Wednesday which was when the Day of Slightly Apathetic Annoyance took place. Amazing how many rightists I've had to point this lie out to this week, almost as amazing as their "well it's what he would say if he wasn't a liar" evasions.

[Loz]

I think we've strayed from my original point. I agree that the DUP are a bunch of political Neanderthals. And May is taking a massive (and almost certainly unnecessary) risk in dealing with them.

But taking that simple issue and then trying to say that, because of that, she is now 'mates' with an ex-Loyalist paramilitary with a lot of blood on his hands and some extremely dodgy NI police offices from 1994 is just unbelievably ridiculous.

[uncleglen]

Talking of political Neanderthals- I see your brown-nosing pal Corbyn is at Glastonbury whilst Theresa May is in Liverpool for Armed Forces Day.....

says it all really

[rendelharris]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Talking of political Neanderthals- I see your

> brown-nosing pal Corbyn is at Glastonbury whilst

> Theresa May is in Liverpool for Armed Forces

> Day.....

> says it all really

That'll be Theresa May who has been part of a government which has cut our military from over 100,000 in 2010 to under 80,000 today? And still has the cheek to pitch up at an event supposedly supporting the armed forces? Certainly does say it all.

[JoeLeg]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Talking of political Neanderthals- I see your

> brown-nosing pal Corbyn is at Glastonbury whilst

> Theresa May is in Liverpool for Armed Forces

> Day.....

> says it all really

Speaking as a former serviceman I have no problem with that. Do you believe the Armed Forces should dictate government policy? Do you feel comfortable denying anyone who doesn't agree with the primacy of the military the vote?

My Coy OC once told us that Starship Troopers (the book, not the idiotic film) was required reading at both Samdhurst and West Point. Sounds good to me - you ever read it?

And as Rendel unfortunately underestimates, the Army is about to get cut to 65,000. Military housing is a sham. CR2 is overmatched by most frontline forces. We literally don't have enough ships. F35 procurement is a joke. Tonka GR.4 MLU is ancient history and the force is basically held together by willpower and hope. Samdhurst is becoming a career factory, not a proper officer training facility (ever wonder why all the most recent Sword winners were heading for the AGC?).

Anything else about the current military you'd like to pretend the government is actually doing right? Don't act like May is doing anything but lying lip service to a force she's cutting to the point where it can't do what it will hopefully never have to do.

At least Corbym is honest about his views of military force. The Tories want a strong army, they just don't want to pay for it.

Any other easily refuted points on subject matter you know nothing about? I assume you've also been at an Armed Forces day event...

[maxxi]

1300 - a-a-a-a-nd relax.