Police Action - Advice requested

[Marmora Man]

My 18 year old son was visiting his girlfriend in Liverpool - driving my wife's car for which he is insured. He was caught in a police speed trap (radar gun). He was driving over the limit, accepts this, has paid his fine and taken the points on his licence. So far, so foolish but not an untypical teenage driver story.

However, having been stopped instead of the situation being discussed at the roadside he was asked to sit in the back of the police car - and effectively locked in. He was then asked for ID, which he did not have on him. The police gave him two options - to be handcuffed and taken to the police station or to have his photo taken then and there in the car by one of the policemen with his Blackberry. He opted for the Blackberry photo and went to the police station the next day with his driving licence. I'm not totally happy with the police behaviour -I have always opposed compulsory ID cards and similar overreaching state authority - but I am slightly unsure of my ground and would appreciate advice before I consider a complaint.

Thanks

MM

Questions:

1. Having stopped a speeding driver do the police have the right to lock the alleged offender in the back of the police car?

2. Not having ID is not an offence as far as I'm aware - so why the option of being taken handcuffed to the police stationb or having a photo taken? Were the police trying to scare him - do they have this authority?

3. Having taken a photo - what could the police do with it? The only biometric photo that might be around would be a passport photo but, as yet, my son's passport is just an ordinary non biometric one. Are the police allowed to interrogate their own, or other authorities, photographic databases to identify someone that has committed a speeding (civil) offense?

[Pearson]

Sounds a little bit fishy.

I've never heard of that myself, nor have i been asked the same in a similar situation.

I mean, don't the police have means to determine who you say you are with having to resort to photo being taken?

[Bluerevolution]

I'd check with a solicitor or CAB if I was you. I've found this http://www.yourdrivinglicence.co.uk/being-charged-with-a-motoring-offence.html . I think you may find police vehicles have childlocks on in the bach to stop people jumping out. So more of an unfortunate situation more than anything.

Also I suppose your lad gave a London address rather than an easy to check local address? This may raise suspicion.

Don't forget scousers are arseholes and hate southerners too ! ;-)

[*Bob*]

Probably standard police procedure in Liverpool. For everyone.

[Pearson]

I used to get stopped for sk8boarding in Edinburgh a lot when staying with my folks.

(was living in London at the time though)

They we're very suspicious when i told them i lived in London...

was even accused of being a cheeky wee *^!(*^ often!

[Tarot]

That happens on road wars all time.

It is more practical to put someone in the back of the police car,so they can check their details.

As for taking pictures, that isnt unusual either, probably a visual record so no one else can pretend to be

the driver when they have to report to the station.

Seems quite normal to me.

[DJKillaQueen]

The Police were just trying to establish identity and it is normal practise to ask someone to sit in a Police car while they do this. If identity can not be confirmed they can take someone to the Police station if they want to, and put them into a cell until ID can be confirmed. They will certainly do this if there is a possibility that a person might be evading confirming identity for any reason.

Your son may well have fit an age profile that Police have a general policy towards.

This is not peculiar to Liverpool. It's policy nationwide.

[LadyDeliah]

I would give Liberty a call for advice on this:

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/index.php

I'd be interested to find out what they say too if you wouldn't mind giving us an update.

[Atticus]

Bob and Bluerevoluiton.

Appears that you are both quite the experts on all things Liverpool.

[pk]

my advice would be to do nothing

[Annasfield]

Bluerevolution Wrote:

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> Don't forget scousers are arseholes and hate

> southerners too ! ;-)

No need for that is there? And the pathetic smiley doesn't make it any less snidey.

[Emerson Crane]

Atticus Wrote:

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> Bob and Bluerevoluiton.

> Appears that you are both quite the experts on all

> things Liverpool.

And you had the nerve to call ny postings inane.

[Loz]

I'd definitely like to know the outcome of this as well. Whilst the locking in the car may be covered somehow, I suspect the enforced photography may be of interest to Liberty, et al.

[trizza]

To answer your questions.

1) Yes, I would have thought so. Speeding is a criminal offence after all. I thought rear seats in Police cars had the child locks on as a matter of course anyway.

2) They have to establish his identity. He could be anyone. I'd say having a pic taken is fairly inoffensive - it's not like they took his DNA or fingerprints (which they probably would have done had he been taken back to the police station).

3) Would be suprised if that pic remained on a database somewhere. Hate to break it to you but they will probably have his photo "on file" anyway as it is scanned when you get a newish (not necessarily biometric) passport. When I had a new photocard driving licence recently they just used the photo I had sent in for my passport (not biometric passport) - there was no need for me to send a new pic in. It was quite convenient really.

My advice would be to do nothing - I don't think the Police really acted unreasonably.

[Marmora Man]

Thanks everyone - general consensu seems to be that I should leave it be and I think I agree having had tie to consider. My only caveat is that I'm pretty sure that if it had been me, a middle aged businessman, stopped by the police I would have been treated more courteously and that my son was somewhat "bullied" by police just because they could get away with it given his inexpereince of life in general and police in particular.

Consider this thread closed.

Thanks again.

[Loz]

That's a shame.

[DaveR]

The practice of traffic officers taking pics at the scene is pretty widespread now.

The intention is to prevent drivers claiming, after the event, that someone else was driving the car at the relevant time.

There is a power of arrest where it is necessary to establish identity - rarely used unless there is a strong feeling that someone is giving false details. It's pretty rare for someone to be out without anything at all with their name on.

I'm opposed to excesses of police power/excessive data gathering but agree that this pic is unlikely to find it's way onto any central database, or in fact be retained once the case has been concluded. You can ask the relevant force to confirm this, and you would have a decent argument that ECHR is on your side.

[Jeremy]

Apparently....

The Police are entitled to ask to see your licence at any time and if you do not have it immediately, you will be ordered to produce it to a Police Station within 7 days. Failing to produce within that period of time is another offence, even if you do actually hold a licence.

The photo seems like a reasonable method of guaranteeing that the correct person presents their license at the station.

If the perpetrator is not prepared to comply with this, then taking them into the station does not seem disproportionate (not sure about the handcuffs though).

What do you fear the police will do with a grainy blackberry photo of your son? It would seem like a hugely infefficient method for investigating a speeding offence, compared with looking up the vehicle registration.

[HAL9000]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> I'm pretty sure that if it had been me, a middle

> aged businessman, stopped by the police I would

> have been treated more courteously

In my experience, one should always be ultra cautious while dealing with the police - many people have been seriously injured or killed during what began as a minor incident through misunderstanding, ego, bravado or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. If one encounters a wrong'un on a bad day, it could be a life changing experience.