Brexit View

[malumbu]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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>

> > first place- to plunder.

>

> Industry? We screwed ourselves there, by refusing

> to recognise that the rest of the world was

> outpacing us. I'm a big fan of unions, but even I

> know that in the 70's and 80's they did a lot of

> damage through believing they were invincible.

>

I'm sure you meant this to be a balanced view but I think this needs further comment. This was a different world. Large private companies, massive state sector, trade unions negotiating terms and conditions was right and made sense. Trade unions were born of a time when workers were being killed and mutilated in factories, mills and pits with no protections and no compensation.

They are membership organisation and express the will of the membership. They are not an evil entity. Of course in the 60s and 70s the tens millions of members were often more militant and had much greater expectations. Essentially the product was crap, the working practices crap, production was crap, and we were suffering from years of sitting our haunches not investing and moving with the times. British motorcycle industry a prime example.

And even that is a gross generalisation as it is a crime that areas were we were world leaders and had invested, railway technology, aviation some elements of computing, we lost our competitive advantage.

Anyway I am ranting. Brexit will not bring us back to some rose tinted view of British manufacturing from the 1950s to mid 60s. So apart from overstating the impact of the unions very much agreeing.

[JohnL]

LOL That ain't happening :) :)

"The Archbishop of Canterbury has called for a Christmas truce in the increasingly bitter row between politicians over Brexit.

Justin Welby called for a "ceasefire" on the use of insults, "personalised attacks" and "pejorative terms" as the process of leaving the European Union continues."

[JohnL]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JoeLeg Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> > > first place- to plunder.

> >

> > Industry? We screwed ourselves there, by

> refusing

> > to recognise that the rest of the world was

> > outpacing us. I'm a big fan of unions, but even

> I

> > know that in the 70's and 80's they did a lot

> of

> > damage through believing they were invincible.

> >

>

> I'm sure you meant this to be a balanced view but

> I think this needs further comment. This was a

> different world. Large private companies, massive

> state sector, trade unions negotiating terms and

> conditions was right and made sense. Trade unions

> were born of a time when workers were being killed

> and mutilated in factories, mills and pits with no

> protections and no compensation.

>

> They are membership organisation and express the

> will of the membership. They are not an evil

> entity. Of course in the 60s and 70s the tens

> millions of members were often more militant and

> had much greater expectations. Essentially the

> product was crap, the working practices crap,

> production was crap, and we were suffering from

> years of sitting our haunches not investing and

> moving with the times. British motorcycle

> industry a prime example.

>

> And even that is a gross generalisation as it is a

> crime that areas were we were world leaders and

> had invested, railway technology, aviation some

> elements of computing, we lost our competitive

> advantage.

>

> Anyway I am ranting. Brexit will not bring us

> back to some rose tinted view of British

> manufacturing from the 1950s to mid 60s. So apart

> from overstating the impact of the unions very

> much agreeing.

What I miss in a union is if I have an issue or want something I have to ask myself and it can get personal - I'd love to "hide" behind the union whilst being a jolly and happy worker :)

My German colleagues have Workers Councils - and it seems to benefit them (although some changes happen slower because of them).

[JoeLeg]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JoeLeg Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> > > first place- to plunder.

> >

> > Industry? We screwed ourselves there, by

> refusing

> > to recognise that the rest of the world was

> > outpacing us. I'm a big fan of unions, but even

> I

> > know that in the 70's and 80's they did a lot

> of

> > damage through believing they were invincible.

> >

>

> I'm sure you meant this to be a balanced view but

> I think this needs further comment. This was a

> different world. Large private companies, massive

> state sector, trade unions negotiating terms and

> conditions was right and made sense. Trade unions

> were born of a time when workers were being killed

> and mutilated in factories, mills and pits with no

> protections and no compensation.

>

> They are membership organisation and express the

> will of the membership. They are not an evil

> entity. Of course in the 60s and 70s the tens

> millions of members were often more militant and

> had much greater expectations. Essentially the

> product was crap, the working practices crap,

> production was crap, and we were suffering from

> years of sitting our haunches not investing and

> moving with the times. British motorcycle

> industry a prime example.

>

> And even that is a gross generalisation as it is a

> crime that areas were we were world leaders and

> had invested, railway technology, aviation some

> elements of computing, we lost our competitive

> advantage.

>

> Anyway I am ranting. Brexit will not bring us

> back to some rose tinted view of British

> manufacturing from the 1950s to mid 60s. So apart

> from overstating the impact of the unions very

> much agreeing.

Just to be clear, I was only commenting on what the unions had become by the mid-70's. It's my belief that an awful lot of hard work in the field of workers rights and safe working practices was wasted.

[keano77]

I know it's a long way off yet but does anyone know which Parliament will vote on the deal first - the EU Parliament or the UK Parliament?

The implications here are huge

[Loz]

The EU side is much more complicated than that as 27 countries have to agree. Some individual countries will have to ratify the deal via parliament and, in the case of some countries like Belgium, some of the local parliaments may need to ratify it as well.

Mind you, the rate the talks are progressing, there will be nothing to ratify...

[keano77]

I understand. However I suspect the EU Parliament will wait to see if the UK Parliament ratifies the deal first so as not to waste its time. However if it then rejects the deal ...

[JohnL]

If you look at the EUs timetable

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/ukevents/brexit.html#shadowbox/1/

The EU parliament votes -> EU concludes deal with exiting member -> Individual parliaments vote - but only on future agreements (trade etc).

I'd say UK parliament will vote about the same time as EU parliament and before individual parliaments.

I'm absolutely sure a final stay offer will come (like Sky offering 60% discount as you cancel)

[JohnL]

The EU Leaders gave Theresa May a round of applause today and Juncker said it was for the effort put in by her personally - so fair enough, also when asked if UK could remain he said that's up to the UK Parliament and people - meaning that option is still there from the EU side I'd say.

[Blah Blah]

We may even end up with a second referendum at this rate. I found Question Time rather depressing this week. Finally there was a leave voter in the audience who acknowledged that it was all more complicated than just staying or leaving and that government should take the time it needs to work through it all. But he was a lone voice among the usual rentamob (on both sides). Still the next one in the New Year is from Islington - Jermemy's own patch.

[Earl Aelfheah]

?Will of the people? seems to be shifting https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-latest-poll-remain-ten-points-leave-bmg-a8114406.html%3famp

[Blah Blah]

Yes I saw that one too. It could just be that enough people are now beginning to realise just what is at risk to warrant a push for a second referendum at some point. Not sure how that would go down though.

[JohnL]

Theresa May directing her comments towards the 48 more now too.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> Yes I saw that one too. It could just be that

> enough people are now beginning to realise just

> what is at risk to warrant a push for a second

> referendum at some point. Not sure how that would

> go down though.

I think it's partly the result of people turning 18. As more and more young people join the voting age population, the split moves in favour of remain.

[Earl Aelfheah]

... by the time we get to the end of the transition period, things could have swung significantly in favour of remain.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Brexit costing us ?350m a week in lost output:

[Blah Blah]

Plus if a new referendum lowered the age to 16 etc etc rah rah. Give is reported to be preparing to ask May to remove us from the Working Time Directive. If he is successful, there goes the first layer of workers protections. It is blatently obvioulsy that people like Gove want to strip workers of protections and rights. Is that what leave voters were voting for?

[JoeLeg]

Do you have a link for that Blah? I've long believed that the main reason people like James Dyson are behind Brexit is because they want to curtail workers rights and take things back towards pre-union times.

I feel the destruction of workers rights is one of the greatest risks of Brexit. When was Gove alleged to have said this?

[uncleglen]

Anyone can opt out of the working time directive- we never signed up to a wholesale 35 hour week like the French did (which probably explains why many French workers moved here) Our rules are a 48 hour week maximum- averaged over 17 weeks.

[JoeLeg]

Typically for you Glen darling, you have completely missed the point.

The point is that - unless the worker CHOOSES - no one can be forced to work more than 48 hour, plus there are rules about minimum time between shifts and mandatory paid breaks.

The question is, will we lose such protection under Brexit, and I ask you directly, are you ok with that?

The French have nothing to do with it, and never did, but it's noteworthy that you can't resist finding a way to blame immigrants for something even though it has nothing to do with the issue of British workers rights.

.

[Blah Blah]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Do you have a link for that Blah? I've long believed that the main reason people like James Dyson are behind Brexit is because they want to curtail workers rights and take things back towards pre-union times.

>

I feel the destruction of workers rights is one of the greatest risks of Brexit. When was Gove alleged to have said this?

Gove yesterday said that the WTD restricted workers freedom to work overtime. It was quoted on the Daily Politics. It is Gove deliberately spreading lies of course (any worker can opt out), just as he has done in the past. Why is he allowed to get away with that? And note that in that cabinet meeting today, Gove's top priority was doing away with the WTD. Not trade, not immigration, not sovereignty, but getting rid of the one piece of legislation that gives workers protections on hours, holiday pay, time off and maternity and paternity rights.

There is video footage of Dyson banging on about wanting the freedom to hire and fire at will and that being his reason for backing leave. It was an Andrew Marr interview. I will see if I can find it. That is what is behind those in power backing leave. They don't care one jot for the ordinary worker. It is all about ridding themselves of barriers to profit, and workers are barriers to that profit if they can't hire and fire them at will.

Found it! Four mins in is where he says UK manufacturers need to be able to hire and fire and he calls for corporation tax to be abolished too - actually says that people's profits should not be taxed. So he wants a tax haven that he can hire and fire within! He almost sounds sane as he says these things. ?354 million profit wasn't enough for him last year obviously!

[Earl Aelfheah]

Blue passports. Not sure what else to say. The country seems to be having some kind of psychotic episode.

[Seabag]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Blue passports. Not sure what else to say. The

> country seems to be having some kind of psychotic

> episode.

Some people seem very excited by the whole thing.

Why can?t we have a Cath Kidston covered passport, that?s be way nicer.

[malumbu]

Dyson is a twot. He is not some sort of folk hero. Thanks for the post Joe. There was a posting on the BBC a few days ago with someone saying he was a person to trust in.

[malumbu]

I've just been reliably informed that with the re-adoption of the blue passport, we are moving back to the old county boundaries. This will of course be great for us in central(ish) London to rid ourselves of Bromley and Romford. I'm also looking forward to visiting Cumberland, Westmoreland and Huntingonshire, although I expect for many of the residents the old county never went away. http://middlesexcountypress.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Map-of-County-of-London-Boroughs-1922.jpg