Brexit View

[robbin]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> Ah look - someone has found google.

No, Sephiroth of Final Fantasy VII ('real' name 'Nemesis') I just looked at some of your other posts on here and my eye was drawn to your reviews of Final Fantasy VII, Final Fantasy VIII, Final Fantasy IX, Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy XI and Final Fantasy XII.

[Sephiroth]

Good games. Not flawless.

What?s your point? What does this have to do with Brexit - apart from you trying to sound superior ?

[keano77]

Interesting...

[JohnL]

Anyone thought that Donald Tusk has taken all the attention and pressure from Theresa May this week before some kind of compromise.

He rang her up beforehand, winked and said "watch this".

No telegraph account but they picked it up in this article - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2019/02/06/real-motivation-behind-donald-tusks-provocative-outburst/

[JohnL]

robbin Wrote:

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> I've just realised I'm being insulted and talked

> down to by someone who spends their time playing

> role playing video games. That's a first! Maybe

> too much of those computer games does lead to

> aggression after all. I will be more understanding

> of you (and patient) in future, Sephiroth from

> Final Fantasy VII.

When you have no leader (as Tusk rightly noticed and pointed out) anger can happen and remainers have done so well to remain cheerful and happy on all the marches.

Actually I play Fallout76 (rubbish game but I've always played fallout - hate meeting other players as I play alone) :)

[JohnL]

Someone on Corbyn's team has just said that May must accept Corbyn's demands in full or the party will move to support a Peoples Vote.

Is that official though - Comes from Matthew Pennycook MP via Faisal Islam.

He's pinned the tweet now

[Jules-and-Boo]

unrealistic.

Just because someone said someone wants something doesn't mean it will happen. A people's vote would not achieve resolution in the timeframe and even if people were in 100% agreement on it (presumably it would have to be very clear what it was voting on) it doesn't mean it would lead to those being baked into an agreement with the EU.

Corbyn would do better to come up with realistic suggestions - he might even gain favour if he could suggest a way May can get through all of this.

[cella]

Agree mostly. Still depressing tho that we have 2 Brexit parties and no proper opposition on it.

[JohnL]

The opposition is still grass roots - but can't really progress like that.

Chris Wylie - some believe him some don't - but he's controversial :)

[Jules-and-Boo]

the opposition to what?

it's all grass roots and not getting anywhere.

[robbin]

The notion of organised 'opposition' to a decision taken in a democratic vote (with a huge voter turnout) does seem a bit odd, in a democracy. The time for opposition to leaving the EU was in 2016. The parties are fearful of thumbing their noses at the majority that voted to leave and I can see why.

[JohnL]

robbin Wrote:

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> The notion of organised 'opposition' to a decision

> taken in a democratic vote (with a huge voter

> turnout) does seem a bit odd, in a democracy. The

> time for opposition to leaving the EU was in 2016.

> The parties are fearful of thumbing their noses at

> the majority that voted to leave and I can see

> why.

Got to prepare for the re-join campaign even if that was true :)

But if we believe (as Chris Wylie) has again stated the result was dodgy (he states the EU have accepted this internally) then it's up in the air.

[Alan Medic]

robbin Wrote:

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> The notion of organised 'opposition' to a decision

> taken in a democratic vote (with a huge voter

> turnout) does seem a bit odd, in a democracy.

So who are those chaps who sit opposite the PM in the HOC every Wednesday? Is that the viewing gallery?

[robbin]

Is he the guy with the bright pink hair? Is he not complaining (for his 15 minutes at least) about an overspend of just ?300,000? Much that I hate fraud, I can't get excited about that, or think that it made a jot of difference to the outcome. If anything the dodgy spending was Cameron spending millions of taxpayers money sending out his booklet to every household saying why people should vote to remain. That didn't seem to work either though.

Wylie's complaints don't seem to have any traction as far as I can see.

[Jenny1]

I think it's really interesting how complacent we are as a country about preserving the credibility of our electoral system and the sanctity of the separation of powers. On the whole we're very passive, aren't we? It's interesting to speculate as to why that is. I think FPTP has got something to do with it.

And as I was saying earlier in the conversation, because views on Brexit cut across party lines the Westminster structure, and the traditional BBC political reporting model, aren't really able to deal with it. Hence the impasse we have now. Personalities have something to do with it too of course. May and Corbyn seem very similar in many ways, particularly in their instinct to isolate themselves. But if we had a different political tradition based on some form of PR, and hence the habit of coalition forming and compromise, then we would have sorted this out a long time ago.

Edited to add some more commas!

[malumbu]

Not sure that the recent scrap between three of you helped my understanding but you have the right to express and defend your views. Now for something completely different... In QT and other forums many have said that the Blitz spirit will prevail and those doubting this are enemies of the country.

I don't doubt that beyond revisionists and little Englanders there is still a Blitz spirit (noting that crime, racketeering, pilfering and the like went up during WW2). 7/7 was a contemporary example of the country pulling together.

Yet how do we get this Blitz spirit when this is clearly madness? It's like a role reversal in WW2 where Britain was the fascist oppressor. Would we have had the same 'fight them on the beaches' mass mentality?

Views please

[Jenny1]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> So who are those chaps who sit opposite the PM in

> the HOC every Wednesday? Is that the viewing

> gallery?

I'd be really interested to hear from anyone with a deeper and more historical knnowledge of UK politics if we've ever been in this situation before - ie with an 'opposition' remaining so muted and ineffective on such a crucial issue. I've taken a keen interest in politics ever since my Dad introduced me to BBC political coverage in the 70s (he was certainly a Westminster junky!). I got his perspective on his own lifetime of course. He was born in 1919 - so his lifetime covered much of interest. But I'm sure there are others on here who've done proper study of twentieth century UK politics and could expand on the question.

Also - has the issue of reforming the FPTP system been prominent at any time prior to the establishment of the SDP in the 80s?

[Alan Medic]

Jenny1 Wrote:

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> Alan Medic Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > So who are those chaps who sit opposite the PM

> in

> > the HOC every Wednesday? Is that the viewing

> > gallery?

>

> I'd be really interested to hear from anyone with

> a deeper and more historical knnowledge of UK

> politics if we've ever been in this situation

> before - ie with an 'opposition' remaining so

> muted and ineffective on such a crucial issue.

You've taken my post out of context Jenny!

[Jenny1]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> Jenny1 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Alan Medic Wrote:

>

> You've taken my post out of context Jenny!

Oh sorry! I'd assumed you were expressing frustration at the lack of opposition at this crucial time, and I wanted to explore that odd phenomenon a bit more. Apologies if I misunderstood.

[Jenny1]

I'd taken agreement with your point as self-evident, Alan Medic.

[Alan Medic]

Ah right, I see. Well I do now, but I didn't then. Thanks.

[Jenny1]

I'm interested in historical perspectives if people have them, as context is always helpful. I don't think it's that useful to go back to anything prior to the nineteenth century.

[Jenny1]

And of course Alan, I meant people with 'deeper and more historical understanding' than me - I wasn't casting aspersions on your own knowledge.

[rendelharris]

robbin Wrote:

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> The notion of organised 'opposition' to a decision

> taken in a democratic vote (with a huge voter

> turnout) does seem a bit odd, in a democracy.

By which token as soon as a party wins a majority in an election the opposition should bugger off and let them do as they wish for the next five years? And every (advisory, non-binding) referendum decision must be treated like Moses' tablets for eternity? In 1975 a democratic vote decided by a huge majority (67%) to stay in the EEC, seems a bit odd that for forty years there was organised opposition to it, in a democracy.

[Sephiroth]

I've said many a time - this country just doesn't get referendums

The idea that a narrow vote, involving illegal money and a massive upheaval to this country (and many others) has exactly the same mandate 3 years on after everyone involved has buggered off is for the birds (or, the willfully stubborn)