Brexit View

[Captain Marvel]

Poor old Uncle, representing the majority quite heroically

I voted remain but if we stay in now, they'll treat us like dogs

[Sephiroth]

"I voted remain but if we stay in now, they'll treat us like dogs"

based on what? and what would that look like?

You think it's preferable to being out now? Good luck with that

Given the astonishing way om which the government, the media and much of the UK population has portrayed europe it's a wonder they are talking to us at all

None of this is difficult - if you really want to leave the EU, then make a 10 year plan, accept it's going to come at a cost and treat your ex-partners with respect.

But the UK (England especially) has been a boorish, embarrassing drunk

And if you want to stay but are worried about how you'll be treated in future then adopt a more mature tone, show some acceptance that you've been a dick and rebuild bridges

But what you shouldn't and can't do is throw all your toys out of the pram and expect any good outcome

[JohnL]

Captain Marvel Wrote:

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> Poor old Uncle, representing the majority quite

> heroically

>

> I voted remain but if we stay in now, they'll

> treat us like dogs

I don't think that would happen for the very reasons that negotiating with the EU is difficult.

They'll stick by the rules, UK would regain senior status in the EU and they'd probably all kiss Boris.

[Captain Marvel]

That ship has sailed Seph

[Sephiroth]

"That ship has sailed Seph"

It's sailing. In the wrong direction. And it's on fire

Granted

But no - I think we still have time to salvage the situation. And even if it was to no avail with the EU, we should be trying anyway - out of self-respect

Because we are going to have to do it eventually - and if we are farther out to sea, with scurvy and on a raft it will be... oh look, I've stretched the already awkward metaphor to far. But the point stands

[Captain Marvel]

Aye aye to that but in the hated phrase, we are where we are.

To try and cancel/delay Brexit now will likely have appalling consequences

[JohnL]

Captain Marvel Wrote:

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> Aye aye to that but in the hated phrase, we are

> where we are.

>

> To try and cancel/delay Brexit now will likely

> have appalling consequences

I think there will be consequences for all involved on all sides whatever happens. The best option is to keep out of the nasty stuff as it will be remembered.

I notice Darren Grimes and George the Poet were on their best behavior on Sky News this morning as if they've grasped this.

[Sephiroth]

To try and cancel/delay Brexit now will likely have appalling consequences?

We have to choose which appalling consequence. I choose remaining and dealing with our own nutters than I do dealing with the outcome of yellow hammer. Which by the way will still mean dealing with our own nutters anyway. They will never be happy. Thinking that Brexit will placate them is a fallacy.

We are where we are. But we can choose where we go

[Burbage]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> Again Burbage- you have NO idea what has gone on

> in the rest of the country since Blair invited the

> poorest of the EU to come and live in the poorest

> areas of the UK..

As that's exactly what I meant by the prioritising of accession-country migrants, I suggest I might have had some awareness. Perhaps, given you know nothing about me, my background or my extended family, perhaps some of your other assumptions might be wrong, too.

But, more importantly and as you helpfully admit, that problem was the fault of the UK government. Blair didn't just fail to use the powers that EU law granted him, he forced councils to bypass UK law, too.

Leaving the EU won't stop that from happening in future (or, obviously, in the past). It likely won't reduce immigration at all, for that matter - visas have already arisen in discussions of brave, if still fictional, new trade deals, and the NHS needs staff quicker than a generation of UK governments has bothered to train them.

Brexit also won't won't stop urban councils 'decanting' those displaced by development, who are always sent from well-heeled cities, where the developers' prospects are brightest, to the places with the cheapest housing, exactly the places least able to cope.

Places such as Hull and Blackpool and Nottingham, and their neglected environs. Brexit won't make them better. If being in the EU didn't provoke the creation of bright new global businesses in those villages, towns and cities, being out of it won't, either. Listen to the government's own words - warm syrup about restarting the Northern Powerhouse (and who, exactly, stopped it?) but nothing for the majority.

The government has bribed a few key seats (not, noticeably, those mentioned) with a few paltry millions as a Brexit bribe, but a one-off bung hardly makes up for the development money the EU distributed, much more fairly and strategically. The EU *is* why Blackpool and Hull (and even Nottingham) have money for flood defences. The EU *isn't* why the UK national and local governments have failed to invest in those cities, or provide a fair allocation of taxpayers' money.

[keano77]

?...The government has bribed a few key seats (not, noticeably, those mentioned) with a few paltry millions as a Brexit bribe, but a one-off bung hardly makes up for the development money the EU distributed, much more fairly and strategically. The EU *is* why Blackpool and Hull (and even Nottingham) have money for flood defences. The EU *isn't* why the UK national and local governments have failed to invest in those cities, or provide a fair allocation of taxpayers' money.?

I?m quite enjoying your posts Burbage even if I disagree with parts of them.

The problem you and Remainers have got with the bit quoted above is Leavers would argue that the development money was only the EU giving us back a small fraction of our own money and telling us what to spend it on no less. Secondly the lack of investment in some of our less prosperous areas, some would argue, is due partly to a lack of funds due to the huge sums the U.K. gives to the EU each year.

Old arguments I know but valid points Remainers cannot get around.

[Burbage]

keano77 Wrote:

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> Old arguments I know but valid points Remainers

> cannot get around.

They're old arguments, but they're not valid. For reasons amply covered elsewhere, and touched on in my first. In short, the money we 'send' to the EU is our contribution to collective projects, from the grubby bureaucracy of labelling regulations and toy safety standards, to global issues such as fishery management, climate change adaptation and the treatment of refugees. Those last, incidentally, are governed not by the EU but by UN agreements that require us to cooperate, politically, practically and financially, with our neighbours.

The EU's provision of development aid to deprived UK regions happens mainly because the UK distributes funds unfairly in the first place. UK governments, since the 1970s, have shown no aptitude to do a better job (because their electoral incentives are distorted by first-past-the-post). A little electoral reform, and a lot more devolution, would balance things up very nicely. But that's for us to do. It's not the EU's fault that we keep voting for grasping shysters who keep selling the future for votes.

[diable rouge]

''the huge sums the U.K. gives to the EU each year.''

Huge? More a sliver In the context of our overall spend.

You're also conveniently forgetting all the benefits of EU membership such as access to the largest trading bloc resulting in jobs, cheaper food and commodities etc, easily outweighing what we pay.

Post-Brexit forecasts including the Gov's own, predict Brexit will make us worse off by affecting UK businesses and therefore the economy, jobs, NHS, education etc, all suffering as a consequence of Brexit, again easily outweighing what we pay...

[keano77]

As I say, there are some points you make that I agree with and many of our problems, or shortcomings, have nothing to do with the EU and stretch back to the Thatcher government but led to the Leave result nevertheless.

However, this whole Brexit issue has been good for this country. It has exposed how over 40-odd years we have sleep-walked into a bureaucratic and logistical spider?s web.

We have lost our own manufacturing base as businesses profited from out-sourcing and just in time supply chains. We are dependent on other countries for medicines which the EU is now using as project fear blackmail. Expand our pharmaceutical industries.

To use one of your examples Burbage, there is no reason why Cornwall couldn?t can its own pilchards so much needed jobs could be created. It would cost far less than one month of our contributions to the EU to set up and we get the income tax and our shopkeepers benefit from workers? spending power.

Whether Britain seizes the opportunity of Brexit or not is of course another question

[pk]

keano77 Wrote:

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> As I say, there are some points you make that I

> agree with and many of our problems, or

> shortcomings, have nothing to do with the EU and

> stretch back to the Thatcher government but led to

> the Leave result nevertheless.

>

> However, this whole Brexit issue has been good for

> this country. It has exposed how over 40-odd years

> we have sleep-walked into a bureaucratic and

> logistical spider?s web.

>

> We have lost our own manufacturing base as

> businesses profited from out-sourcing and just in

> time supply chains. We are dependent on other

> countries for medicines which the EU is now using

> as project fear blackmail. Expand our

> pharmaceutical industries.

>

> To use one of your examples Burbage, there is no

> reason why Cornwall couldn?t can its own pilchards

> so much needed jobs could be created. It would

> cost far less than one month of our contributions

> to the EU to set up and we get the income tax and

> our shopkeepers benefit from workers? spending

> power.

>

> Whether Britain seizes the opportunity of Brexit

> or not is of course another question

Clueless

[Alan Medic]

keano77 Wrote:

>

> We have lost our own manufacturing base as

> businesses profited from out-sourcing and just in

> time supply chains. We are dependent on other

> countries for medicines which the EU is now using

> as project fear blackmail. Expand our

> pharmaceutical industries.

Where is the source of this assertion that the EU is using access to medicines as blackmail? I've heard the Brexit Secretary state recently that much of Ireland's medicines comes through the UK and indeed the current Home Secretary not too long ago implied that the UK could starve Ireland, as it imports food from the UK. If that's not an attempt at blackmail,I misunderstand the concept.

[keano77]

Correct me if I?m wrong, but as I understand it the worry over the supply of medicines is they?ll be caught up in bureaucratic customs processes - UK companies dealing with customs declarations and/or the need to change IT systems to comply with customs processes and border requirements for both import and export.

If this is correct all the EU has to do is guarantee priority clearance and dispense with form filling and box ticking in the case of essential medicines.

The EU is not our enemy and is not employing some medieval siege tactic to unleash pestilence and starve the UK into submission. However it?s time the EU got a grip and realised there?s a limit to pen pushers colouring paragraphs red, amber and green.

I realise such a guarantee would weaken its negotiating clout but such a guarantee could be released in the next 10 minutes if there was good will.

[pk]

keano77 Wrote:

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> Correct me if I?m wrong, but as I understand it

> the worry over the supply of medicines is they?ll

> be caught up in bureaucratic customs processes -

> UK companies dealing with customs declarations

> and/or the need to change IT systems to comply

> with customs processes and border requirements for

> both import and export.

>

> If this is correct all the EU has to do is

> guarantee priority clearance and dispense with

> form filling and box ticking in the case of

> essential medicines.

>

> The EU is not our enemy and is not employing some

> medieval siege tactic to unleash pestilence and

> starve the UK into submission. However it?s time

> the EU got a grip and realised there?s a limit to

> pen pushers colouring paragraphs red, amber and

> green.

>

> I realise such a guarantee would weaken its

> negotiating clout but such a guarantee could be

> released in the next 10 minutes if there was good

> will.

In case you missed it, it was the UK that wants out of free movement of goods, not the EU

This is a consequence of brexit not a cause

[keano77]

?...This is a consequence of brexit not a cause?

True pk. There will be many consequences.

But I cannot see administrative intransigence leading to the 21st century equivalent of people leading horse- and donkey-drawn carts through the streets of Britain shouting

?Bring out your dead - the EU is holding up our medicines because we haven?t filled out the forms properly?

But then again I could be wrong. We?ve all met jobsworths who stick to the rules

[Sephiroth]

The arrogance of countries before a fall

?Could never happen here?

Taking control of borders is uk?s idea. Taking control of borders is exactly about ?filling out forms correctly?

Some bad quality drugs comes through from eu specifically because some jobs worth doesn?t fill in papers and the usual suspects will be up in arms

This is on you. Don?t be giving it the high hat and blaming eu for the consequence of your own actions.

[keano77]

We are talking about possible shortages of life-saving medicines and you are trying to justify ?filling out forms correctly? ?

I?m sure you don?t really believe that

[pk]

keano77 Wrote:

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> ?...This is a consequence of brexit not a cause?

>

> True pk. There will be many consequences.

>

> But I cannot see administrative intransigence

> leading to the 21st century equivalent of people

> leading horse- and donkey-drawn carts through the

> streets of Britain shouting

>

> ?Bring out your dead - the EU is holding up our

> medicines because we haven?t filled out the forms

> properly?

>

> But then again I could be wrong. We?ve all met

> jobsworths who stick to the rules

I don?t think you?ve any concept of the unavoidable complexity of exiting the EU

Whilst the intention may be good, you seem to massively oversimplify things

Not least when suggesting that rules (as in laws) are optional and for jobsworths

[Sephiroth]

We are talking about possible shortage life saving drugs based on your decision and support. And you are sticking with it. The reasons for the delays are many and complex and interdependent. But you have its down to a few form fillers

If you remove controls on medicines you introduce a gift drug smugglers

The same option is to stay in the eu and spend the time working out how to slowly withdraw if that?s what you still want. Dictating to other countries how they should manage their supply chains is typical of the hubris that has brought us to this point.

But as you haven?t reconsidered by now, remaining polite serves no purpose.

[keano77]

I concede I do over-simplify things. However there is a tendency to tie ourselves up in knots with all the rules - directive xyz as amended blah blah. The danger is we can?t see the woods for the trees.

I think it?s Parkinson?s law that basically says bureaucrats make up rules to keep themselves in jobs.

I don?t have a problem with the avocado for my morning toast going up in price because of a tariff. I do have a problem with medicines being delayed because of form filling. It would be unnecessary as we have been importing these medicines from the same reputable sources for the last 40-odd years.

I don?t believe the EU would allow such a situation.

[Sephiroth]

The eu ha spelt out many times the consequences

The uk government has also done studies and know the coming consequence

What you believe is of no use to anyone. There is only what we know and the probability that happening

The uk, not the eu, is allowing this to happen

The eu is saying this will happen and the uk is saying ?we know we know but?

If you have been doing something for 40 years without problem then I suggest you keep doing that

[pk]

Whilst on the subject of medicine, we should remember that the European regulatory HQ recently left London taking hundreds of jobs with it, as a direct result of brexit

And leaving the uk without effective law regulating medicine here (unless we just stick with the eu regime, which presumably isn?t what leavers want)

This is our problem not theirs