Method of measuring distance from primary school used by Southwark Council

[Spooner]

Hi

I remember seeing someone gave a link to a tool which Southwark Council use to measure how far you live from local schools. I have searched the forum over and over and can't find it anymore. Does anyone know it please?

Thanks

Spooner

[Fidgetsmum]

Have a look at this thread - has it got the information you mean?

EDF Primary Schools

[cff9]

Southwark Schools Preference Adviser sent me a link to this -

http://schoolsfinder.direct.gov.uk/

[edhistory]

This topic came up in dicussion with my GIS tutor in the context of preparing historical maps of East Dulwich schools.

I have tried to make this short and not too technical.

John K

[1] The Office of National Statistics maintains a data set of the "official" positions of all schools in England.

[2] The official position is called a "centroid".

[3] The centroid is defined by a National Grid Reference to many decimal points, sufficient to maintain the Ordnance Survey's nominal 2cm [sic] positional accuracy.

[4] Southwark schools now use "as the crow flies" calculations to determine catchment areas.

[5] It is a simple matter to have GIS software draw a "buffer" [circle] of a specific radius from the centroid.

[6] The buffer would be the same as the Southwark declared catchment area.

[7] Southwark schools deviate from the official centroid when calculating catchment areas.

[8] No opinion is expressed on the legality of this deviation.

[9] Where there is more than one school entrance Southwark schools choose a school entrance in place of the official centroid.

[10] No opinion is expressed on the legality of choosing a school entrance as a different centroid to modify a

catchment area.

[11] It is a simple matter to create a new centroid data set and draw a new buffer based on the chosen school entrance.

[12] When a child can be outside a catchment area by as little as one metre where the centroid is based in regard to

the school entrance can be important. It can be the difference between the left-hand and right-hand gate post.

[13] Southwark Council [Planning Department] should have access to basic GIS software than can calculate the buffers.

[14] Mapping buffers would provide objective evidence as to the alleged East Dulwich "black holes".

[15] Mapping buffers would help parents in assessing the accuracy of a failed school application on the grounds of being outside the catchment area.

[16] In 2011 there is no reason why Southwark Council should not be using GIS for these important calculations.

[Fuschia]

I don't know about Southwark but Lewisham state on their website:

"How do you measure home-to-school distance?

We use a highly accurate computerised measuring system based on national Ordnance Survey maps.

You can use electronic tools such as our find your nearest school pages, or Up My Street (follow the link on the right) to get an estimate of the distance between your home and local schools.

Important note: you should only use these tools as a guide, as they are not as accurate as the measuring system that we use.

"

As long as the c ouncil abides by the stated method, I don't see how legality could be challenged

[chantelle]

knowing which school gate they use and being able to map from it could make a big difference!

[Fuschia]

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:0gfZFxWrmX8J:www.southwark.gov.uk/download/1650/oversubcription_criteria_for_southwark_community_primary_schools_for_september_2011_admissions+southwark+how+do+they+measure+distance+to+schools&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiH8HGbTP-ZQvgfZ7ZXnSa9gT97GZGCPpOLUB-Paf2WWwbv3bUr6H-O1YAsxCvqrfOtIIONdJcirBSEujj3tZ1S2fP4lvOVs1SQGFEQ0HpSQxqGqKbE87KExHdOPisJ7PPkG0xg&sig=AHIEtbT6QnOt1UZ5Bw3Qvm_zEY8FOEiMdQ

This is Southwark's policy, p1 states southwark use a GIS system, and measure from the school's main gate

[edhistory]

I was too technical.

Just two points:

[1] Southwark Council's assertion that its GIS calculation trumps anything done by a citizen is false.

[2] There are at least three potential legal grounds to challenge a catchment area determination. I'll leave this for the EDF lawyers to explain.

John K

[Fuschia]

but edhistory, your previous post was arguing that southwark council should use a GIS system, now we have established that it does, you seem to have started arguing the opposite.

You also seem to have an issue with LAs using the school main gate as the pont of measure, but I am not sure you are aware of the Admissions Code -

"2.37 Distance between home and school is a clear and objective oversubscription criterion and is often used as a tie breaker in oversubscription criteria. It has the benefit of ensuring that children will not have a disproportionately long journey if access to their nearest school is not possible. Admission authorities must explain clearly how distance from home to the school will be measured including the points at the school and the child?s home from which distance is to be measured (for example, the main school gate, the front door to the home, how flats will be treated). "

[chantelle]

bottom line - how can a parent measure the distance of their house from the school gate?

[Fuschia]

chantelle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> bottom line - how can a parent measure the

> distance of their house from the school gate?

You would need to ask southwark for the official measurement from their system

[smb12]

In answer to your question Chantelle, quite conveniently for Southwark LA (and no doubt their legal team), only they will be able to tell you the actual distance measurement (down to the last metre) that they will then use to calculate your home's distance to your chosen schools. This is because while they use a commercially available GIS software system called Hometrack SMART, Southwark themselves decide where to plot the point in each school from which each distance measurement to applicants' houses are made.

I have found all this out after our child missed out on a Sept '11 reception place by a mere 3 metres (which was by far our closest community school). We did extensive research into how Southwark undertakes its distance calculations and contacted the GIS company (Hometrack) directly.

While the GIS software uses underlying large-scale Ordnance Map Data and the GIS software itself is incredibly accurate (partic in calculating crows flies distances), Southwark are able to select the measurement point in each school. I have found that in the case of our school, this point is different from the point used by publically available school locator websites - including Southwark's own public school finder site!

If you use Google Earth to calculate crows flies distance, then the results will also probably be different (even if you know what point Southwark are actually using) as Ordnance Survery data automatically discounts building heights and also has a margin of error of at least -/+ 1m.

Finally (and quite crucially), the point at which the SMART GIS software uses within houses to calculate distances to the school is arbitrarily placed within houses. This means that in some houses, the point could be at the front door and in others it could be in the middle of the house or even the back door. We live in a long, thin house - so the 3 metre difference between us and the furthest successful applicant to our child's school could have been easily absorbed by our living/dining room!

We used all of this information in our appeal to Southwark (which we have yet to hear back from Southwark on) - however we have now secured a place at a faith school for our son so will not proceed with the appeal. I am still very annoyed at the system however and do think the use of crow flies measurements as unfair and quite ridiculous.

[edhistory]

smb12's post is accurate.

It also deals in passing with the three known grounds for challenging a Southwark Council GIS generated catchment area decision.

One additional point:

It is not only Southwark Council that has access to commercial GIS. I have used ArcGIS to generate maps. In 2011 there are probably surveyors and civil engineers living in East Dulwich who have access to commercial GIS packages. Southwark Council determinations are now subject to citizen validation.

John K

[chantelle]

smb - thanks for that. i would be angry too - glad you've found an acceptable alternative though.