Hateful prejudice rears up

[Lee Scoresby]

An article in today's paper has completely outraged (and alarmed) me.

A fishing lake in Oxfordshire has erected a sign saying:

NO POLISH OR EASTERN BLOC [sic!] FISHERMEN ALLOWED

All part of the insane nasty Brexit fascist-racist mood, no doubt.

You may well ask, Where are the cops? And the CPS? Nowhere, apparently.

I always think that part of the pleasure of living in East Dulwich - or anywhere in London - is the mixing of so many different kinds of people from all over the planet. It feels like the future, in an entirely good way. Well, if that sign appeared in East Dulwich, would we accept it? So why is it OK out there in whitebread Oxfordshire?

A legal challenge is planned, in the face of official inaction. See https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/sign/ and please donate, even a little.

As the theme to The Wire reminded us, "Gotta keep the devil way down in his hole". Gotta push back hard or this hateful garbage will poison this country.

Lee Scoresby

[Sue]

That's disgraceful.

I've just donated, and I've shared on Facebook. My daughter lives in Oxford and hopefully will share too.

I don't know what the legal position is as it's a private fishery, though, and also I don't know whether "Polish" etc would be legally covered (I once knew all this stuff but I'm retired now, lol).

ETA: My daughter is donating too.

[lavender27]

Can someone tell me why the Polish are getting a rollicking?

[Siduhe]

Lavender27, the owner of the fishery reportedly claims that Eastern European fisherman don't ?catch and release? as they are supposed to but take their catches home with them so the lakes keep running out of fish. No excuse for a sign like that.

[AbDabs]

lavender27 Wrote:

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> Can someone tell me why the Polish are getting a

> rollicking?

Because they eat carp. There have been a spate of carp being eaten rather than put back. So I understand

[JoeLeg]

This is something I wondered about.

A few years ago I read an article about a strawberry farmer who found that a small number of Eastern European families were turning up to his pick-your-own fields with cream, sugar and bowls and sitting down to stuff themselves before purchasing a desultory amount of fruit. It was only a tiny amount of repeat offenders but it was enough to damage his already slender margins to the extent that he had to plough in the whole lot. I should mention that the point of the article was about financial difficulties facing soft fruit growers, it was pre-referendum and the farmer is question he no axe to grind against immigrants, he simply couldn't absorb that level of pilfering.

This sounds similar - carp is a popular fish in Eastern Europe, particularly Hungary which uses it on a fish soup at Christmas.

None of that is an excuse for theft of course, just as it is not an excuse for that appalling sign. That said, if people are taking fish from a 'catch and release' lake, then the owner may have a legitimate greivance. I certainly don't ateee with how he's chosen to deal with it, but just as it's not possible to police a pick-your-own farm, what is he supposed to do?

I'm not sure what the answer is. On the one hand he's apparently the victim of theft, and on the other he's responded in a repulsive manner.

[Sue]

Surely you deal with theft on an individual basis.

If he knows a certain person has stolen fish, then he should ban that person.

If he doesn't know who the thieves are, then on what basis has he put up this notice? Which btw is sexist as well!

[JoeLeg]

All good points Sue; I'm plainly not supporting his actions. I'm simply playing 'Devil's Advocate' over the motivations.

This is essentially racial profiling, which is a massive ethical black hole. I admit I haven't seen any links to more detail or tried to google it up, which I will later tonight, but based on what I've read in that crowdfunder the guy mounting the challenge is obviously aware that not everyone understands how it works with angling in the UK.

I guess I'm sympathetic to the predicament of someone who presumably has seen his stocks decline and feels he has to take drastic measures.

I was initially furious, but then I asked myself what would I do? Presumably (and I'm making an assumption here) he has already tried the police. I doubt that what he's doing is legal, and I suspect it could be overturned in court - and it should be, for the sake of precedent if nothing else - but that doesn't change the fact that the owner is also a victim of crime.

As I say, this is racial profiling and that never ends well. Personally I don't see how this can end well in any event because the owner can always respond that he is taking steps to protect his property. Immoral, racist, unethical and probably illegal steps, but there's plenty of media that will support him unfortunately.

I really have no idea how you resolve something like this.

[DaveR]

The issue of 'cultural misunderstanding' re fishing and the Polish community has been around for years - the Environment Agency got a roasting years ago for putting up signs in Polish warning about the need for a licence and the limits on catches. I'm not sure this is a great example of something to call out as 'hateful prejudice'

[Sue]

I agree it's very difficult.

Years (decades) ago, I was running a dviersity (except it wasn't called that then) training session for senior managers in a well known organisation.

One of them said "I won't employ West Indians (sic), they're all thieves."

My jaw dropped (hopefully not noticeably). Apart from the fact that he thought it was OK to say this not only in public but in a session specifically to address this kind of thing, the statement was plain ridiculous.

Yes, probably he had had some people from a particular group steal stuff. And probably he had also had people from other particular groups steal stuff. But to stereotype a whole group of people in that way and then to affect their employment prospects as a result .....

You surely go through every application with a fine tooth comb, take up references and go from there. And this particular organisation had a whole department to deal with theft, and any suspicion that an employee was stealing would be immediately followed up and investigated. And where necessary the police involved.

It is complicated, but not that complicated surely.

ETA: Sorry, this is in response to two posts back, not the one above.

[lavender27]

Siduhe Wrote:

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> Lavender27, the owner of the fishery reportedly

> claims that Eastern European fisherman don't

> ?catch and release? as they are supposed to but

> take their catches home with them so the lakes

> keep running out of fish. No excuse for a sign

> like that.

Thanks for explaining siduhe.

The owner should add to that sign," please pay at kiosk for any fish you take home, so we can replenish the lake" and direct it to everyone who fish there not just "Eastern blokes/ Polish"

It's all a load of carp.

[nxjen]

I don?t understand why there is a crowdfunding appeal to mount a legal challenge. ?An Equality and Human Rights Commission spokeswoman described the sign as discriminatory and unlawful, and said it would be writing to the fishery to advise it to take it down.?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-42412384

[poch]

I bet some 'Western' Europeans / Brits are guilty of taking the freakin' fish home too. A sign like that wouldn't have gone up pre-Brexit vote. So sad.

[lavender27]

Also people from Iceland (when they found it closed)

poch Wrote:

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> I bet some 'Western' Europeans / Brits are guilty

> of taking the freakin' fish home too. A sign like

> that wouldn't have gone up pre-Brexit vote.

> So sad.

[Huggers]

Angling - fishing as a sport means no one taking any fish home but returning them alive to the water after weighing and photographing. Anglers often know the individual wiley old carp, having caught and returned them to the water before. Taking them home and eating them is something else altogether. There should be a big sign explaining this to new anglers. its a sport not a shopping expedition.

lavender27 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Siduhe Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Lavender27, the owner of the fishery reportedly

> > claims that Eastern European fisherman don't

> > ?catch and release? as they are supposed to but

> > take their catches home with them so the lakes

> > keep running out of fish. No excuse for a sign

> > like that.

>

> Thanks for explaining siduhe.

> The owner should add to that sign," please pay at

> kiosk for any fish you take home, so we can

> replenish the lake" and direct it to everyone who

> fish there not just "Eastern blokes/ Polish"

>

> It's all a load of carp.

[Sue]

nxjen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don?t understand why there is a crowdfunding

> appeal to mount a legal challenge. ?An Equality

> and Human Rights Commission spokeswoman described

> the sign as discriminatory and unlawful, and said

> it would be writing to the fishery to advise it to

> take it down.?

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-4

> 2412384

I was under the impression from the quite long blurb on the crowdfunding site that the EHRC had already written such a letter, which had been ignored by the fishery?

ETA: I may be wrong, as I only read it quickly through once.

[rendelharris]

Huggers Wrote:

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> Angling - fishing as a sport means no one taking

> any fish home but returning them alive to the

> water after weighing and photographing. Anglers

> often know the individual wiley old carp, having

> caught and returned them to the water before.

> Taking them home and eating them is something else

> altogether. There should be a big sign explaining

> this to new anglers. its a sport not a shopping

> expedition.

I don't eat them myself, nor do I fish, but I can see rather more justification in catching them and killing them to eat, rather than sticking a barbed hook through their top lip, hauling them thrashing to the bank under extraordinary stress, holding them out of the water to photograph them (which is, essentially, the equivalent of holding a human's head underwater) then returning them for it to be done all over again the next day, for "sport."

[uncleglen]

Obviously the bloke has not gone his job properly

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/35028556/my-job-is-telling-people-from-eastern-europe-not-to-eat-carp-from-uk-rivers