The East Dulwich & Nunhead Thames riverbank in the Late Devensian to Holocene transition (Map)

[edhistory]

Our valley is immediately south west of the Isle of Dogs.

The map shows the probable high water mark of the River Thames about 10 000 BC.

John K

EDIT 2011-07-03: More interesting thread title

EDIT 2011-07-04: Reversion to original thread title

[katie1997]

Please don't show the Anthropocene in East Dulwich.

[mockney piers]

You can achieve the same effect using thus google mashups site of rising sea levels

http://flood.firetree.net/?ll=51.4921,-0.0625&z=5&m=9

[edhistory]

Mockney Piers:

Have I got news for you.

There were no roads or railways in 10 000 BC.

The "about" file on flood.firetree.net is careful to explain the data sources, their limitations, and how the data has been transformed. As you can see, this is an inappropriate data set for modelling our valley's landscape.

It is not possible using this data set to achieve the same effect as using Ordnance Survey data.

However we can use this inappropriate data set as a demonstrator for some of points worth further investigation with more accurate data.

[1] Set the view to Hybrid.

[2] Centre the map to Goose Green roundabout.

[3] Change the Sea level rise to +20 m.

[4] There are now three stand-alone blue blocks. The clunky nature of these is explained in the "about" file.

[5] The blue block on Peckham Rye Common doesn't need any explanation.

[6] The blue block to the north of Grove Vale is part of the Grove Vale Depression. Because of the vertical scale intervals you cannot see the rest of the depression south of Grove Vale. However, if you walk along Grove Vale and look along the side roads you can see it quite clearly. The historical implications are for another thread.

EDIT 2011-07-06: Goodbye depression. There is a small channel between Bellenden Road and Oglander Road.

[7] The blue block north of Abbotswood Road is the demolition layer of Constance Road Workhouse.

[8] The whole of the land between Dog Kennel Hill and Red Post Hill is heavily engineered.

[9] Re-centre the map to the junction of Townley Road and Lordship Lane.

[10] Change the Sea level rise to +30 m.

[11] The shape of the lower part of our valley is now visible.

[12] The Peck/Effra watershed is now visible

[13] The Herne Hill Gap is now visible.

John K

[Asset]

I'm stuffed if it goes to +30

[Alex K]

"The blue block north of Abbotswood Road is the demolition layer of Constance Road Workhouse." Fascinating -- http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Camberwell/ tells one a great deal -- but... how does that fact make the patch in question soggier than elsewhere?

[prickle]

"[6] The blue block to the north of Grove Vale is part of the Grove Vale Depression. Because of the vertical scale intervals you cannot see the rest of the depression south of Grove Vale. However, if you walk along Grove Vale and look along the side roads you can see it quite clearly. The historical implications are for another thread. "

I'm intrigued - what is the Grove Vale Depression and what are the historical implications? Could you explain in a nutshell?

[edhistory]

Alex K:

I didn't know that patch was soggier.

I've attached the Constance Road Workhouse borehole report so you can see what lies below.

[The victorian reference to London Clay is obsolete].

John K

[edhistory]

prickle:

The Grove Vale Depression displays itself as a shallow basin from which water cannot drain naturally.

I don't know what it is. My first thought is that there is a clay lens which has compressed a lower layer of mixed clay/sand/gravel. Further research is required.

It is too subtle to read from a map or a LIDAR dataset. You will need to walk Grove Vale and see it for yourself.

EDIT 2011-07-06: There is a small channel between Bellenden Road and Oglander Road.

John K

[Townleygreen]

John K

Its a nice map that you have posted, but please could I ask you to give us a key? What do the colours mean? That makes a map really useful.

Thanks for your postings by the way - very interesting

[benmorg]

Alex K Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Camberwell/ tells one

> a great deal.

So St Francis Road used to be Constance Road and the Abbotswood Road area was a large Victorian workhouse, later converted to a wing of the hospital. Very interesting. I wonder if the secret tunnel under the railway line still exists??

[mikeb]

John K - on drainage north of Grove Vale:

Greenwood's map of 1830 seems to show a stream running along what is now Bellenden Rd - see here http://www.motco.com/map/81003/

Zooming in, it seems to show a number of bridges e.g. with what is probably Maxted Rd

http://www.motco.com/map/81003/SeriesSearchPlatesFulla.asp?mode=query&artist=385&other=753&x=11&y=11

and

http://www.motco.com/map/81003/SeriesSearchPlatesFullb.asp?mode=query&artist=385&other=752&x=11&y=11

[edhistory]

mikeb:

I've merged the two relevant 1820 map tiles and removed the overlap.

Either the 1820 map is not to scale or whoever scanned it introduced an East-West distortion.

Nevertheless the adjusted overlay is accurate to within a few yards.

The discontinuous drainage ditch goes Northerly from the edge of the depression.

John K

[prickle]

Fascinating - so Bellenden Road was built over the ditch/stream. The mash up really shows the development of the area.

[mikeb]

Great overlay - I think the accuracy of the map is pretty good for its time. (incidentally, I thought the 1820 map didn't extend this far south - was that a typo? http://users.bathspa.ac.uk/greenwood/map_i7m.html)

Looking closely, the field boundary cutting across Marsden and Muschamp Roads reminds me of this discussion about Marsden Road and subsidence: http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,28744,29112#msg-29112

A shame Macroban isn't still around - she would have enjoyed this.

[edited twice to include correct link to the old thread]

[edhistory]

Thanks MikeB,

I think it's now clarified as an artefact of urbanisation.

I've put some blue arrows following the contours on the 1856 Water Map. This shows the likely natural drainage line. I've not done an overlay but it looks like the arrows join up with the drainage ditch on the 1820 map.

John K

[edhistory]

The County Series has contours. I have marked the 50' contour in red. There is a "channel" in the back gardens between Bellenden Road and Oglander Road.

That looks like the end of the Grove Vale Depression that I have known and loved for 40 years.

John K

[edhistory]

...the Peckham Sewer.

As the stream crossed the East Dulwich Parish boundary it went into a branch of the Earl Sewer.

John K

[PeckhamRose]

And the reason Highshore Road is called Highshore Road?

Just askin'.

Actually I seem to remember going on a Peckham Society walk and whoever was leading - Peter Frost probably - said Highshore Road was so called because if the Thames were to flood it would not get higher than High Shore.

Or maybe he didn't.

[edhistory]

It's quite plausible that the great floods of 1300 and 1649 (someone check these dates) reached as far as the old Thames river bank near Highshore Road. Nineteenth century floods only seem to have reached as far as the canal basin.

I don't know much about Peckham history. Whichever of us who sees Peter next can ask him about his sources(s).

John K

[ibilly99]

If only you could have bought in the Anthropocene period - you'd be minted now as well as fossilised.

[edhistory]

John Beasley very kindly took a photograph of the old stream bed for me.

Unfortunately there's too much foliage. We need a winter-time photo.

But I still think the photo is worth sharing as it is an unusual/unique view of this part of East Dulwich.

John K

[mikeb]

Plenty of digging going on at the moment in this area for the gas mains - might reveal something interesting about the history of the terrain

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,757322,757322#msg-757322