Don't let Boris and Michael scrap our working time rights

[malumbu]

Wonderfully titled. I normally have a rant went others put petitions up, but this one is of course different

https://campaign.goingtowork.org.uk/petitions/hands-off-our-holidays-don-t-let-boris-and-gove-scrap-our-working-time-rights?source=twitter-share-button

[Loz]

May: "Ah, Boris, Michael - come in. I have received this petition from one of the unions. Apparently they are very keen to keep the Working Time Directive. Quite a number of a people have signed it."

Boris: "A large number of people? Gosh - there are tens of thousands! Flibbertygibbits. We'll have to abandon all our plans now."

Gove: "Good point well made, Boris. Online petitions are such a rare thing - we must treat it as the true Voice of the People. It has spoken to us... and so we shall listen!!"

This will never happen.

Though in other news, thousands of people have been added to the TUC email contact list.

[JohnL]

Just wait until they move on to food hygiene, safety, environment, animal welfare,

[uncleglen]

JohnL Wrote:

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> Just wait until they move on to food hygiene,

> safety, environment, animal welfare,

The health and Safety at work act 1974 is ours. France STILL force feeds geese for its crappy food. you doom-mongers are ridiculous- but so predictable.

[JoeLeg]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JohnL Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Just wait until they move on to food hygiene,

> > safety, environment, animal welfare,

> The health and Safety at work act 1974 is ours.

But the Working Time Directive is not, you ignoramus.

> France STILL force feeds geese for its crappy

> food.

Ah yes, foie gras, that so widely consumed food delicacy! Got any more badly constructed straw man arguments?

you doom-mongers are ridiculous- but so

> predictable.

Well quite a few people predicted that people like Dyson would start lobbying for Brexit to eradicate workers rights post-Brexit and this is a worrying early indicator.

I?ve asked you this before but strangely got no answer - do you believe that we should incorporate the protections employees currently enjoy into British law post-Brexit?

Or are you going to be predictable and not engage in discussion?

[Blah Blah]

Uncleglen should look at the interview between Andrew Marr and James Dyson and then tell us all how we are going to pay for public services when James Dyson gets his wish of no corporation tax.

[dan b]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> uncleglen Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > JohnL Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Just wait until they move on to food hygiene,

> > > safety, environment, animal welfare,

> > The health and Safety at work act 1974 is ours.

>

> But the Working Time Directive is not, you

> ignoramus.

>

>

> > France STILL force feeds geese for its crappy

> > food.

>

> Ah yes, foie gras, that so widely consumed food

> delicacy! Got any more badly constructed straw man

> arguments?

>

> you doom-mongers are ridiculous- but so

> > predictable.

>

> Well quite a few people predicted that people like

> Dyson would start lobbying for Brexit to eradicate

> workers rights post-Brexit and this is a worrying

> early indicator.

>

> I?ve asked you this before but strangely got no

> answer - do you believe that we should incorporate

> the protections employees currently enjoy into

> British law post-Brexit?

>

> Or are you going to be predictable and not engage

> in discussion?

All of the EU-derived employment rights are already incorporated into British law - e.g. the

Working Time Regulations which have been UK law since 1998. We were required to bring these in by the Working Time Directive. So your weekly hours and holidays are already our law. They will only change if our Parliament decides to change them. Given that we negotiated such a watered-down version for our UK regs compared to the original Directive (much longer standard working hours than across the rest of Europe), and have working conditions which are already pretty flexible and ripe for abuse even with these apparent protections, and that the remedies for breaching WTR are pretty weak, I'd say this one is in the more unlikely employment law candidates for change. I'd keep a sharper eye on TUPE protections although whether we can change those will very much depend on the nature of our agreed commercial relationship with the EU afterwards.

[JoeLeg]

It may be incorporated into British law, but it?s the EU law which keeps it there.

I do not believe big business will miss the opportunity to increase profits at the expense of workers rights. I hope I am proved wrong.

[rendelharris]

dan b Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> All of the EU-derived employment rights are

> already incorporated into British law - e.g. the

> Working Time Regulations which have been UK law

> since 1998. We were required to bring these in by

> the Working Time Directive. So your weekly hours

> and holidays are already our law. They will only

> change if our Parliament decides to change them.

> Given that we negotiated such a watered-down

> version for our UK regs compared to the original

> Directive (much longer standard working hours than

> across the rest of Europe), and have working

> conditions which are already pretty flexible and

> ripe for abuse even with these apparent

> protections, and that the remedies for breaching

> WTR are pretty weak, I'd say this one is in the

> more unlikely employment law candidates for

> change. I'd keep a sharper eye on TUPE protections

> although whether we can change those will very

> much depend on the nature of our agreed commercial

> relationship with the EU afterwards.

You are much, much too sanguine. Most EU laws which are part of our law are being ported across, but under the Henry VIII clause the government will be able to hack out anything they don't like; May has already refused explicitly to rule out removing the working time directive: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-accused-of-refusing-to-explicitly-rule-out-scrapping-paid-holidays-right_uk_5a37bbe9e4b040881bec57c0 Anything and everything in our law which stems from EU law can potentially be removed without parliamentary scrutiny after the UK has left the EU.

[dan b]

Not being complacent as I wouldn?t trust much this Govt says, but that?s the prevailing school of thought. Also worth bearing in mind that an assault on our already low holiday entitlement and high working hours would be a virtual suicide note for the next election. As for Henry VIII clauses, they won?t allow them to hack out anything they don?t like. Some changes, yes, but it is difficult to make substantial changes to the intention of the law with a Henry VIII clause without any oversight. The courts have been very clear about ensuring parliamentary supremacy when it comes to the (common) use of these clauses in the past and any attempt at executive overreach can be challenged in the Courts. It?s entirely right to be on edge about the comments being bandied around by those in power, but I think at the end there will be other targets.

[rendelharris]

I don't think you're being complacent at all, just optimistic! From the UK Parliament website re HVIII clauses:

The Government sometimes adds this provision to a Bill to enable the Government to repeal or amend it after it has become an Act of Parliament. The provision enables primary legislation to be amended or repealed by subordinate legislation with or without further parliamentary scrutiny.

As far as I understand it that means the government can "repeal or amend" anything that's been ported over; any challenge to that would come in Parliament but if the opposition asks for such a decision to be scrutinised such a request can be rejected by a vote in Parliament. With the (bribed) support of the DUP that shouldn't be too difficult to reject; from what I've read there's a very strong groundswell of support in the Tory party to scrap the WDT. We shall see...

ETA Quite take your point about the difficulties of persuading the electorate to accept working hours changes, but in the current febrile climate anything that's portrayed as "casting off the EU shackles to liberate British business" will find much favour in many quarters, I feel.

[JohnL]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't think you're being complacent at all, just

> optimistic! From the UK Parliament website re

> HVIII clauses:

>

> The Government sometimes adds this provision to a

> Bill to enable the Government to repeal or amend

> it after it has become an Act of Parliament. The

> provision enables primary legislation to be

> amended or repealed by subordinate legislation

> with or without further parliamentary scrutiny.

>

> As far as I understand it that means the

> government can "repeal or amend" anything that's

> been ported over; any challenge to that would come

> in Parliament but if the opposition asks for such

> a decision to be scrutinised such a request can be

> rejected by a vote in Parliament. With the

> (bribed) support of the DUP that shouldn't be too

> difficult to reject; from what I've read there's a

> very strong groundswell of support in the Tory

> party to scrap the WDT. We shall see...

>

> ETA Quite take your point about the difficulties

> of persuading the electorate to accept working

> hours changes, but in the current febrile climate

> anything that's portrayed as "casting off the EU

> shackles to liberate British business" will find

> much favour in many quarters, I feel.

They've already got through a motion to scrap the European fundamental rights charter

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/15/suella-fernandes-new-brexit-minister-eu-charter-human-rights

[uncleglen]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> uncleglen Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > JohnL Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Just wait until they move on to food hygiene,

> > > safety, environment, animal welfare,

> > The health and Safety at work act 1974 is ours.

>

> But the Working Time Directive is not, you

> ignoramus.

>

>

> > France STILL force feeds geese for its crappy

> > food.

>

> Ah yes, foie gras, that so widely consumed food

> delicacy! Got any more badly constructed straw man

> arguments?

>

> you doom-mongers are ridiculous- but so

> > predictable.

>

> Well quite a few people predicted that people like

> Dyson would start lobbying for Brexit to eradicate

> workers rights post-Brexit and this is a worrying

> early indicator.

>

> I?ve asked you this before but strangely got no

> answer - do you believe that we should incorporate

> the protections employees currently enjoy into

> British law post-Brexit?

>

> Or are you going to be predictable and not engage

> in discussion?

Discussion- with rude people making personal insults just like last year when Brexit was accomplished- why should I waste my time. This just proves your predictability.

If the WTD is so great why are there so many French people working in the UK then?- So that THEY themselves can work when THEY want. I heard a youngster boasting about how he had notched up 75 hours of work and now can afford to get something he wants. I myself worked 2 jobs when I was single after all- why sit and drink in the pub when you can work behind the bar?

The only reason wages are low is because we are IN the EU and the europeans here are keeping the wages low- whilst they dispatch ALL the money they earn OUT of the UK

[JoeLeg]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JoeLeg Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> Discussion- with rude people making personal

> insults just like last year when Brexit was

> accomplished-

At which point you started to insult Remain voters quote merrily, so take a look at yourself.

why should I waste my time. This

> just proves your predictability.

From the guy who regularly links anything from the continent with everything wrong with the UK...does it never occur to you that we may have created some of these problems ourselves, and that populism always blames others for its own failings?

> If the WTD is so great why are there so many

> French people working in the UK then?-

Link please? How many French people are here. As you?ve so often been asked on the past, please back up your assertions.

So that

> THEY themselves can work when THEY want. I heard a

> youngster boasting about how he had notched up 75

> hours of work and now can afford to get something

> he wants.

Right. So you?ve missed the point. Anyone can drop OUT of the WTD if they wish to, and go back into it again with (I think) 12 weeks notice to their employer, and the employer cannot tell them no. The point I was trying to make is that their are certain rights under the WTD which are now at in place, such as paid breaks, minimum time between shifts, cannot be forced to do more than 48 hours if they don?t want to and so on.

It is NOTHING to do people working more if they want to, and your strawman argument is plain.

I myself worked 2 jobs when I was single

> after all- why sit and drink in the pub when you

> can work behind the bar?

> The only reason wages are low is because we are IN

> the EU and the europeans here are keeping the

> wages low- whilst they dispatch ALL the money they

> earn OUT of the UK

Again, please provide links to sources that prove this. Are you an economist? How do you know this? Can I you prove this assertion?

You believe that wages will rise when we leave the EU, because British people will not tolerate lower wages. This will require British people to do the jobs that immigrants are doing now, and consumers to pay higher prices that businesses will charge when the wage bills go up. Personally I?m ok with that, are you?

[JohnL]

Well Gove now wants to bring in loads of foreign farm workers.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/gove-calls-for-thousands-of-foreign-workers-to-continue-to-be-allowed-to-come-to-britain-after-a3770941.html

They may not want to come !

'However, he argued that in the medium to long term, Britain?s farmers had to move away from a ?relatively labour intensive model? to a ?more capital intensive? approach.'

What does the above mean - robots ?

[malumbu]

More of a Brexit conversation, yes with an ageing population that Brexit will add to, we will need robots to support health and social care (and labour-intensive industries), as Japan are doing already. A fact not planet fear or Remoaning.

[Blah Blah]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well Gove now wants to bring in loads of foreign

> farm workers.

>

> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/gove-call

> s-for-thousands-of-foreign-workers-to-continue-to-

> be-allowed-to-come-to-britain-after-a3770941.html

>

> They may not want to come !

>

> 'However, he argued that in the medium to long

> term, Britain?s farmers had to move away from a

> ?relatively labour intensive model? to a ?more

> capital intensive? approach.'

>

> What does the above mean - robots ?

He clearly understands nothing about farming. Pretty much every area that can be mechanised, has been. But there are many soft crops that can not be picked by machine. Fruit is an obvious one, but something like lettuce, also has to be hand picked. There is a machine that runs slightly ahead of the pickers with a conveyor belt onto which they put the lettuce when it is picked. Inside that machine are other workers wrapping and packing the lettuce for shipping.

Picking lettuce is back breaking. Those workers have to also be quick and accurate. These are not desirable jobs for anyone, let alone a population that sends half it's young to University. The harsh realisy is that these jobs re never going to be above min wage. Huge areas of farming is subsidised anyway. My parents are farmers. It is not a lucrative existence by any means.

And to unclegen, this fantasy that leaving the EU will push wages up is just that. Economies don't work in isolation. If the cost of production is not competitive we simply end up importing more. If anything, the single market has done more to protect trade between it's internal members from outside competition than the other way around.

[malumbu]

I picked peas as a student, easier than doing spuds (back breaking) and far better than soft fruit which paid the equivalent of about ?2 an hour. All casual, all cash in hand.

The generation that did this sort of thing has gone - students and school kids (wouldn't do it any more), urban poor (wouldn't do it any more), travellers (not sure whether they still do casual farm work), and as said many of us would also be signing on.

Interestingly the farm has diversified into B&B. Most voted to leave in the area. Brian Aldridge is a keen leaver, but also a crook and a philanderer. Not a good role model for the rural gentleman Brexiting farmer (or maybe it is).

[JohnL]

In the 1980s we went through a phase of "pick your own" and we brought into it and went out to pick our own.

Didn't last too long though :)

[Blah Blah]

Pick your own is usually reserved for the fields where the level of fruit is no longer enough for the pickers to meet the levels of produce needed by retailers. In terms of harvest, Strawberries peak around June, raspberries July. Red and blackcurrents all summer. Raspberries pay the most because they are the most delicate to pick. But all this stuff was paid peacemeal in the past, as malumbu points out, usually to local casual workers. Picking would start really early in the morning (6am) and be done by lunchtime, and we always had more people than we needed turn up.

To put this in some context. A punnet of UK strawberries in a supermarket costs maybe ?2? At most ?1 goes to the producer. An average worker might pick a tray of punnets an hour in peak harvest (strawberries have to be picked with a stem). A tray holds 12 punnets. So lets say ?12 is the income to the farm for that one hour of work by that worker. Out of that has to come the costs of growing the strawberries (months of work) and other business costs. When you look at the production costs of each hectare compared to labour costs, you begin to see why margins are so narrow. And also, that margin is only achieved if the picker meets targets. But there is also a limit to that human productivity on a farm.

[JohnL]

Prices will rise then - can't see any other way.

[Blah Blah]

Either that or farmers will diversify into other crops and leave some types of fruit to be imported. There is still no guarantee from government that they are even going to maintain existing subsidies once we have left the EU. And some farms may well go out of business. Agriculture is one of the major sectors they need to find some agreemnt with the EU on in my opinion. Car manufacturing is another obvious one. Leave supporters have to be sensible about these things.

[fishbiscuits]

Surely for most professional/corporate type jobs these days, everyone is asked to opt out when joining the company.

[JohnL]

fishbiscuits Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Surely for most professional/corporate type jobs

> these days, everyone is asked to opt out when

> joining the company.

I opted out - the other option was monitoring my hours and sending a summary to HR every week. But professional jobs maybe not where abuses happen.