Football Focus

[Otta]

Atticus, you take exception to everything I say, and it's boring. Feel patronised all you like, I didn't intend it, but I won't apologise for it.

I certainly don't think I can talk for scoucers, and a lot of the fans I'm talking about are not even scouse.

What if I, as a Londoner who was 10 at the time of the disaster, and had no link to anyone who was affected started claiming to feel grief over it? I think that would make me a fucking idiot.

I would say exactly the same thing if it was any other team, I have nothing at all against scoucers as a whole, and count several as good friends.

But of course, you'll think the whole world is against you, because that seems to be your thing.

[Otta]

That is not to say that O don't find it very sad, and the footage hard to watch by the way. But it doesn't have a personal effect.

RD, why do you feel affected by Munich? I'm not taking the p!ss, it's a genuine question.

[Atticus]

there you go again, 'I think the whole world id against me'. How is that not patronising? How is claiming that we all think we are funny not patronising... there are more examples. You have the issue here, not me and somewat ironically it is you who is acting the victim. Get over it.

[Otta]

Get over what?!? You (not scoucers as a whole, but YOU) are what I am talking about.

[Otta]

In fact Atticus, do me and yourself a favour, and put me on ignore. You have decided that I live to dig out scoucers (not true), and you read in to my posts stuff which just isn't there.

Put me on ignore, and you won't have to see it, and in turn, I won't be aaccused of shit by a very paranoid person.

[Atticus]

YOU aren't like being held to account on this and thus attempting to shift it towards a personal issue. It is YOU who says these things on this forum so, who-else, do YOU suggest should I direct my response towards? Laughable.

[Otta]

Okay then, tell me the things I've said that have upset you, and I'll address them.

When, for example, I said about scoucers thinking they're dead funny and cheeky, I never meant everyone ever born in Liverpool. It is a stereotype, and stereotypes tend to exist for a reason.

In fact, don't bother, just stick me on ignore. I'll never convince you that I don't have some deep issue with your scouse brethren, and frankly, I can't be arsed trying. You don't like me, I'll just have to shoulder that burden. It'll be a lifelong struggle, but I suspect I'll manage.

[StraferJack]

Atticus - you are making yourself look very foolish here. I can't see anything Otta has said that could be deemed even mildly, much less "very" offensive

Some Liverpool fans are waaaaaay oversensitive - and refusing money from AD because they took "offence" at what he said just proves the point.

All season long people have had to listen to many Liverpool fans adopt an odd, seige-like mentality (Suarez anyone?) and Otta has been brave enough to step aside from that particular consenus and give a more reasoned opinion

Not really sure what your beef is

[Atticus]

Otta, the use of 'twisted' towards all LFC fans I find offensive, you haven't addressed that yet. your sign-off reflects that of a sulky teenager determined to claim the higher moral ground. tip, don't go getting upset when writing stuff that might offend, offends on a public forum. Now roll up your bottom lip and get back to saving the world (I think that is the kind of pay-off you will RESPEK!!!)

[StraferJack]

what otta said was, was "Hillsborough is different because of all the cover up, and the quest for truth, which keeps it alive, helped by fans' slightly twisted desire to share in the grief in order to feel like part of something, even though they had no link at the time"

Now he could have added "some" before fans, but just because he didn't doesn't mean he meant "all" - that's your interpretation and there is no need for it really

[Atticus]

Well, that's a pretty big word given the context, don't you think?

[Otta]

helped by fans' slightly twisted desire to share in the grief in order to feel like part of something, even though they had no link at the time.

Atticus, when you're right, you're right. I should have said "a significant number of fans", rather than relying on the good readers of the EDF to realise that I didn't mean every single fan.

My bad.

[El Pibe]

Good to see you well and truly quashing the oversensitive sterotype ther Atticus.

To paraphrase you, well actually just truncate you a little bit "don't go getting upset when writing stuff".

I'd step away from the keyboard and cool off for a bit if I were you.

[Atticus]

you win Otta, you are way too smart for me.

so all south americans footballers are cheats

or

some south american footballers are cheats.

If I was Messi I'd take offence to the first example and would probably just think the writer was ignorant.

[Otta]

Cross posted with StraferJack, but glad to see that someone got my meaning correctly.

[Otta]

Atticus, the difference is, I never ever used the word ALL.

[Atticus]

El Pibe, if my finding the stereotyping as twisted of many people I know is me being over-sensitive, then i'm wrong but I don't think it is.

[El Pibe]

All forumites are prone to using straw men.

vs

Some forumites are prone to using straw men.

The former is a generalisation with a kernel of truth.

The latter is simply correct.

[El Pibe]

Fair enough Atticus (and apologies for the teasing). It's just I think it has come across as rather an ott reaction to a perhaps slightly lazily worded opinion that wasn't without merit.

We've all had ding-dongs in the past, god knows I've had a few, and sometimes it's better to let the mist clear. If you read this thread tomorrow it won't look nearly as bad.

Parkdrive used to be terrible at it, but he's clearly learnt the lessons of letting others' posts get to him, likewise I'm much better at not getting involved in ding-dongs and usually have a quiet pm word to calm waters rather than get stuck into polarised slanging match.

You're not the first and you won't be the last to bite at something and overreact.

[Ladygooner]

Meanwhile - back to the football again! Does anyone think Man City still have a chance of the Premiership?

[El Pibe]

Not to be flippant, but does anybody care?

Oh, fair enough...it's just ratty and me then!

[red devil]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> RD, why do you feel affected by Munich? I'm not

> taking the p!ss, it's a genuine question.

Munich is ingrained in Utd's history and the club's psyche. As a supporter you absorb all that.

I don't walk around with a heavy heart thinking about Munich all the time, but on or near the anniversary I do stop and think about what happened, especially if it coincides with a matchday. When it does, there's always a sombre air at the ground.

Personally I don't feel grief, as I know what real grief is having lost close family and recently my best friend, but there is a sense of sadness.

As a club we probably have a sense of closure over Munich, eventually out of the tragedy came triumph when we won the European Cup under Busby.

As you pointed out, LFC don't have that sense of closure, and to some of their fans maybe they probably never will.

I agree LFC don't have a right not to play on the anniversary, but I understand why they wouldn't want to.

[Otta]

I agree LFC don't have a right not to play on the anniversary, but I understand why they wouldn't want to.

Absolutely. Hope I haven't come across as thinking otherwise. But can see why a Chelsea supporter might be a bit hacked off about it in football terms.

[Atticus]

Otta, apologies I sent the message below to you as a pm by mistake.

Not using the word ALL.

South American footballers are cheats...

[Otta]

Saw the PM before seeing this, so responded to that.

Won't post the whole PM, but will repeat that if I said "I thought it was disgusting when Chelsea fans started booing the minutes silence", I'd assume (perhaps wrongly) that it was obvious I didn't mean every single Chelsea fan, and that there was no need to add "some".

Anyway, I'm sure everyone is bored of this now.

LadyG, I'd like to see an exciting run in, but even if City beat United in the big match, I still see them dropping more points.