Football Focus

[DaveR]

"This issue will not and cannot be reconciled until both sides realise that this tragedy was a long time coming and it was based in the human condition, the history of conflict between football fans and the police and society at large, the the football industry abdicating responsibility for it's fans in a climate of fear."

This is the most outrageous crap. There are obviously background factors against which particular decisions were made, both on the day and more generally (e.g. FA continuing to use Hillsborough as a venue) you can't ignore the fact that there were specific acts and decisions that can be traced to a direct causative link to the deaths of 96 human beings. See the Taylor Report:

http://www.southyorks.police.uk/sites/default/files/Taylor%20Interim%20Report.pdf

which despite its imperfections provides a pretty comprehensive account of the relevant events (although obviously not the police cover-up).

The simple fact is that the primary responsibility for the safety of the crowd rested with the police, who are supposed to be trained and managed effectively to carry out this task, and they failed. Had they not failed, in all likelihood no-one would have died. Why they failed undoubtedly includes because some were predisposed to view all football fans as potential violent criminals rather than potential victims of circumstance beyond their individual control. Whilst that view may have been understandable, because of the history of football related violence in the 70s and 80s, it does not excuse the failures in any way because the police are supposed to be the professionals.

I have been critical in the past of a wider tendency of Liverpool fans to lay claim to being somehow special and superior to fans of other clubs, but in relation to Hillsborough I have never been aware of anything other than an unwavering belief that the behaviour of fans on the day played no causative role in the deaths of 96 people, and a desire to have that proved. It has been.

[Otta]

What has been proved is that the police royally fucked up, and that stories of robbing the dead ect were bollocks.

What we don't know, is how a lot of the fans outside the ground at say 2:50 were behaving.

Why does everything have to be black or white, either it was all the police's fault, or it was all the fans' fault?

No, the Police were at fault, that is absolute fact. That doesn't mean that all the fans were behaving themselves.

I really don't want to upset anyone, and last night I said I'd keep quiet, but I don't understand why everyone is taking offence from what Huguenot is saying. He is not denying anything that was revealed yesterday, or suggesting that any of the stories The Sun printed about the Liverpool fans were true. He is simply saying (and I agree) that it is unlikely the police didn't have their hands pretty full that day.

I actually feel sorry for the average low ranking bobby who was there that day. It must have been absolute hell for all of them, and now they are being demonised, whereas I'm sure a lot of them did their best. It's not like they stood there thinking "let them all die".

[DaveR]

Otta, there is a difference between fans being well-behaved (I'm sure not all of them were) and there being any connection between their behaviour and what happened. As an example, Taylor identified that observation of the crowds on the terraces was flawed and inadequate, and communication between those who could observe and others who were in control of the gates was poor. No fan had either the ability or the responsibility to affect any of that; they were just in a crowd that behaved in a predictable way, and should have been managed properly.

I share your sympathy for many of the cops present. Contemporary reports include one effectively paralysed and crying because he didn't know what to do. The failings were largely in systems and leadership, although I have no doubt that the background expectations about how fans typically behaved played a part.

An obvious contrast with Hillsborough is Heysel where although some of the background circumstances were the same (rubbish ground and rubbish police) it is clear that the immediate cause of the deaths was specific acts by a number of Liverpool fans (albeit at lesst in part responding to acts of Juventus fans). They too obviously didn't want anyone to get killed, but they bear the responsibility.

[Otta]

Absolutely, and please don't think for a second I'm suggesting that the Hillsborough fans were behaving like the Heysel fans.

It makes me laugh when I hear some people saying "Heysel wouldn't have happened if it had been a decent stadium". Well yes, but the wall wouldn't have fallen down if you hadn't rushed it you moron!

[Parkdrive]

Otta Wrote:

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> He hasn't done bad, but I do still have some pity

> for him, I believe that given the choice of

> sitting on the bench, or the injury table and

> being paid a load of money, or being fit and

> playing for that money, he'd wish he could be fit

> and playing.

>

> A career that promised much more than it ended up

> giving.

Yeah I'm gutted for the poor multi-millionaire. Life must be a real bitch for him.

[Otta]

He's no more a money grabber than any other premier league player. What would you have him do, say "no thanks, you keep the money". Obviously he's a wealthy man, and I'm not saying he has a hard life. I am just saying that as a player I feel for him as I'm sure he'd much rather have been fit over the years and played a lot more games.

[Jah Lush]

I'm inclined to agree with you Otta. He's been unlucky with injuries and with the choices Alex Ferguson had up front it was at the best of times tough for him to get any minutes on the pitch. I think he'll get more games at Stoke and if he gets the service he'll score goals, no doubt about it. He could benefit by playing with Crouch up front and feeding off him. Just hope he stays fit.

[red devil]

Norwich 1 West Ham 0

Arsenal 2 Southampton 0

Aston Villa 2 Swansea 2

Fulham 0 West Brom 1

Man Utd 2 Wigan 0

QPR 1 Chelsea 3

Stoke 1 Man City 1

Sunderland 2 Liverpool 1

Reading 1 Tottenham 1

Everton 1 Newcastle 0

[Jah Lush]

Norwich 1 West Ham 2

Arsenal 3 Southampton 1

Aston Villa 1 Swansea 2

Fulham 2 West Brom 2

Man Utd 3 Wigan 0

QPR 0 Chelsea 3

Stoke 1 Man City 2

Sunderland 2 Liverpool 2

Reading 2 Tottenham 1

Everton 3 Newcastle 2

[????]

Blooming'

[????]

Blimey Jah, you that optimistic? I see Reading getting 8

[Jah Lush]

Wouldn't surprise me. We're that shit at the moment.

[Parkdrive]

Jah Lush Wrote:

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> Wouldn't surprise me. We're that shit at the

> moment.

What I still can't understand is why on earth they brought AVB on board. I just don't get it.

Norwich 1 West Ham 1

Arsenal 2 Southampton 0

Aston Villa 1 Swansea 2

Fulham 2 West Brom 1

Man Utd 3 Wigan 0

QPR 1 Chelsea 3

Stoke 1 Man City 2

Sunderland 1 Liverpool 2

Reading 1 Tottenham 2

Everton 2 Newcastle 2

[Huguenot]

DaverR...

" you can't ignore the fact that there were specific acts and decisions that can be traced to a direct causative link to the deaths of 96 human beings."

Sure thing, I agree, and where criminal actions can be identified they should be prosecuted.

I'm simply trying to remind people that there is a different, less simplistic approach to this event that would be more just. Take two scenarios:

In one, villagers are roundly condemned, subject to witch hunts and public hate for specific acts and decisions that lead to the death of a shepherd boy from a wolf attack.

In the other we are reminded that this boy has cried wolf 50 times as an attention seeking exercise, and is consequently the real architect of his own misfortune.

In the blind tribal binary world of some Liverpool fans, many of whom weren't even born when this event took place, there is only one interpretation - that the authorities deliberately manufactured a series of events to murder innocent angels, that they deliberately prevented access to emergency services to murder some more, and then laughed as they deceived the public about what really took place.

In a more likely world, a series of mistakes were made in good faith, compounded by an incorrect analysis of the situation, and faced with a entirely unique and undreamt of unfolding tragedy everything went to shit.

Frankly I wish you would stop suggesting that I deny this tragedy or the mistakes that were made. I'm simply trying to ratchet down the ridiculous claims being made about faultless fans and demonic authorities.

[Alan Medic]

http://super6.skysports.com/

As some of you guys like predicting results, put it to good use and enter this. It's free and you COULD win a lot of dosh if you're lucky.

[Bluerevolution]

Streams for all games today http://shadygiz.blogspot.co.uk/

[El Pibe]

Hammers on the telly again, get in.

And Yossi back in the side, pay attention pibe!

[Otta]

Not shaking Terry's hand is totally understandable, but Ferdinand has hardly covered himself in glory by snubbing Cole. Silly move.

[ratty]

Bunch of pricks - all of them!

I would like to pass on my sincere thanks to Arsenal for making me piss my pants!

[Otta]

ratty Wrote:

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> Bunch of pricks - all of them!

And on that note I think this thread should close. A fine summary and not much else to say!

[Alan Medic]

You know it wont. It's a stupid ritual and should be abandoned.

[Alan Medic]

Actually it just made me think what a moneymaker it is for some clubs. All those little mascots are probably paying ?300 a go to get on the pitch for that.

[Ladygooner]

ratty Wrote:

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> Bunch of pricks - all of them!

>

> I would like to pass on my sincere thanks to

> Arsenal for making me piss my pants!

Glad to be of assistance! Should be first on MOTD today for a change

[Mick Mac]

Otta Wrote:

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> Not shaking Terry's hand is totally

> understandable, but Ferdinand has hardly coverqed

> himself in glory by snubbing Cole. Silly move.

Not sure I agree with that Otta (again). It's one thing with Terry being racist but a bigger issue with Cole.

[maxxi]

So, Wellbeck has obviously worked on his diving and now gets the penalty. Dirty cheating diving b*stard or credit to the game? Suppose that depends on whether he dives for ManU or England.