When was East Dulwich - 1245 AD

[edhistory]

This text is shaping up to be the earliest authenticated historical reference to East Dulwich.

John K

Bermondsey Abbey Chronicle SA 1245

Et hoc anno facta est concordia inter priorem de Bermundeseye et priorissam de Halywell, de decimis in Est Dilewiche, scilicet quod dicti prior et conventus de Bermundeseye percipient omnes decimas maiores provenientes de terris, quas de bosco vel de pastura in agriculturam dicte moniales converterint in parochia de Cambyrwelle

[Sue]

My O level Latin won't run to translating that, John, can we have a translation please?

Est Dilewiche, eh?

[sillywoman]

Google translate says;

And this year there was a harmony between the first and of the prioress of Bermundeseye Halywell, is by the tithes in the Dilewiche, namely, that the said prior and receive all the tithes of the major meetings concerning Bermundeseye arising out of the countries, of which the wood or in the pasture of the said nuns turn agriculture in the parish of Cambyrwelle

[jim_the_chin]

'Est' isn't East though?

[Applespider]

Putting some basic Latin knowledge and some human thought alongside the translation, I'd go for

And in this year there was an agreement between the prior of Bermondsey and the Prioress of Halywell about the tithes in East Dulwich. That the Prior and convent of Bermondsey will receive all the tithes arising out of the woods, pasture and the nuns' agricultural labour in the parish of Camberwell.

[GSJ57]

Are there any forumites as old as I am who took part in the Dilwihs/Dulwich millenium parade in 1967? I was riding on the back of a float proudly wearing my Brownie uniform and waving a homemade Union Jack if I remember correctly!! Can't remember the whole parade route but I know we went through Dulwich Park.

[ianr]

Applespider, that looks pretty good to me, by my own basic Latin. I surmise it's just a tenth of what the nuns produce or gather. Does anyone know what if anything the maior adds to the decima?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

major or greater tithe (wheat, etc) as opposed to minor (eg, hazlenuts).

[Penguin68]

major or greater tithe (wheat, etc) as opposed to minor (eg, hazlenuts).

Yes, it's worth remembering that we are not talking about a money economy here - hence tithe barns being places where the tithe (in produce) was stored.

It's also worth remebering that at this time Anglo-Saxon (actually by now Middle English) words were being included in Latin texts. Legal texts mix French with English as well ('il jecte un graund brickbat' being quite a famous one). Hence 'Est' for East (as opposed to 'it is') is quite possible.

Google translate works in classical latin - medieval latin (which anyway often has local variants) is beyond it. The 50 year old Revised Medieval Word List I have confirms Decima Maior as 'great tithe'.

[edhistory]

jim_the_chin and Penguin68:

"East" for "Est" is secure.

The clincher is the 1820 Charity Commissioners' report on Battersea Parish.

GSJ57:

I was there. The parade ended in Belair Park. The tableaux were done lakeside.

It's taken me nearly 50 years to realise that Bill Darby, my one time latin master, was having a huge joke on the people of Dulwich Village.

John K

[Amelie]

I thought the first mention of Dulwich is in the Domesday Book.

[Alex K]

Compliments and particular thanks to the OP and to Applespider!

[edhistory]

Janet Nelson has kindly provided an accurate translation.

Her credentials for this are here.

John K

In this year an agreement was made between the Prior of Bermondsey and the Prioress of Holywell concerning the tithes in East Dulwich, namely, that the said prior and community of Bermondsey should take all the greater tithes coming from the lands which the said nuns had converted from woodland or pasture into ploughed land in the parish of Camberwell.

[ianr]

> Janet Nelson has kindly provided an accurate translation.

Gradely. Thanks. And it even explains why the agriculturam was, mystifyingly to the unthinking, in the accusative.