Drug Policy

[LizzygotDizzy]

Singapore?? Freedom??

[????]

Singapore is plastic, money obsessessd and has knocked down its heritage for shopping malls, truly one of the most sterile and awful places I have visited.....but it is safe.......oh, by the way, ask all the thousands of Thai whores in Singapores multiple brothels how free and nice Singapore is.

Will never go back there again, hideous place full of western moneytraders and their eastern cpounterparts......

but it is safe.

*pukes

[lozzyloz]

????, Lakeside, Bluewater, Brent X, The Glades, Bullring, Arndale, Meadowhall, Centrale, Whitgift, Whiteleys . . . I could go on. As for sex workers, there are thousands all over the UK, both indigenous and imported from Eastern Europe, South America and Asia.

So the only difference seems to be sunshine and crime?

[*Bob*]

lozzyloz Wrote:

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> So the only difference seems to be sunshine and

> crime?

To be fair, Singapore does have the world's highest per capita death penalty rate.

You don't get that at Bluewater.

[Keef]

And binge drinking ;-)

[lozzyloz]

Extract from the Singaporean Press:

In a breakthrough for American trade negotiators, Singapore recently relaxed its ban on chewing gum, imposed a dozen years ago for the sake of tidiness. Singaporeans now can lawfully buy 'medicinal' gum - including Nicorette and, on the theory that it promotes dental hygiene, Wrigley's sugar-free Orbit - but only in pharmacies, and only after showing identification. A pharmacist convicted of selling unregistered gum, the Associated Press reports, can be jailed for two years. Street cleaners are now grumbling about wads of gum defacing sidewalks and pavement.

. . . and in the UK Press:

In a breakthrough for drug dealers, the UK recently relaxed its ban of controlled drugs, imposed for the sake of protecting its citizens. People now can lawfully buy 'class A' drugs - including Heroin, Crack and Cocaine, on the theory that it promotes safer streets - but only in licenced pharmacies, and only after showing identification. A pharmacist convicted of selling unregistered Crack, can be jailed for twenty years. Special Constables are now grumbling about stoned addicts littering the sidewalks and pavement.

edited for spelling mistakes

[mockney piers]

Wahey lively debate.

I see both sides, LozzyLoz is right to counter quids' tirade by saying they're all applicable here, too right, but then quids has a point that it is indeed a sterile place that's knocked down its heritage, though there are huge amount of restoration going on in the areas that survived but rotted, such as Joo Chiat, where our own Huguenot now lives.

I didn't take to it like a duck to water, but what I sensed there was a buy-in to the social fabric, mutual respect and an absence of intolerance (I avoid saying the word tolerance as people aren't tolerating each other, it just works, the only other place I've witnessed this was Cuba).

That said the lack of political freedom does make me very uncomfortable, and the problem with benevolent dictatorship is that it doesn't take an awful lot to turn it into malevolent democracy.

Oh, and Goodfellas on TV "Fun your mop you muddy funster" was hilarious!!

[lozzyloz]

Have a good trip Mockney?

I would never suggest for a moment that we emulate the Singaporean governments political straightjacket on it's people, only suggested that perhaps we try the zero tolerance drugs approach (minus death penalty (China is highest *Bob*)) which seems to work.

We have some pretty sterile places in this country too (Coventry, Portsmouth, Bradford, Docklands etc) and not much real political choice either.

[*Bob*]

Highest per capita, Lozzy. Not highest.

[lozzyloz]

ah. (tu)

[*Bob*]

When I read Mockney's description "I sensed there was a buy-in to the social fabric, mutual respect and an absence of intolerance" it was almost word-for-word the same as a description my old history lecturer used - about East Germany when he lived there.

Saying you want something like a Singaporean society minus the dictatorship and the death penalty is like saying you'd like a bag of chips minus the potatoes.

[mockney piers]

Yeah, great trip, good to see the lads again, and just nice to have a brief window of warmth and eat tonnes of great food.

I wasn't really trying to move the debate away from prohibition, but I guess I saw how the ultimate in nanny states had actually managed to achieve alot, and it was the social cohesion it achieves which troubled me most, as it's what I'm missing most about modern 'me me me' Britain.

However i guess what I'm doing is falsely attributing the latter to the former. If anything this state has become much more nannying AND managed to lose social cohesion and mutual respect.

Back on topic I by-and-large agree that prohibition really isn't working and anything which takes the power and money out of the hands of illegal criminals - see what I did there ;) - is a good thing, though I don't for a second thing it should be done lightly, and perhaps phased in kicking off with cannabis.

[mockney piers]

AS I said *Bob* it's uncomfortable stuff, and as Cuba is my only other example of such a society then perhaps we're to be cursed with poverty, crime, jealousy, racism and hatred while we have the freedoms to express them.

Depressing huh?

[lozzyloz]

No *Bob*, you're reading too much into what I've said. I've never, and I thought I'd made that clear, said I wanted a Singaporean Society here. I've simply said as part of this thread on Drug Policy that perhaps a zero tolerance approach minus the death penalty could work here. This kind of approach doesn't necessitate importing all the other features of Singaporean Society.

Are you suggesting that controlled drugs should be available on the black market for recreational use and that the responsibility for taking them lies with the user? Fine for you and me but it doesn't solve the wider issue of dependency, abuse and crime does it?

[*Bob*]

lozzyloz Wrote:

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> Are you suggesting that controlled drugs should be

> available on the black market for recreational use

> and that the responsibility for taking them lies

> with the user?

That wouldn't be a suggestion - that would be the reality you're talking about there. And it always will be. I have no suggestions that will ever come to pass. Cannabis will probably waver around the periphery of legality - but as for the rest - forget it. Nothing will happen.

No government want be seen as 'soft on drugs' any more than it wants to criminalise several million of its electorate in one fell swoop.

[Brendan]

The only way to have a crime free society and maintain our (western, democratic or what ever you want to call them) social and political ideals is to have a very low level of poverty and a relatively even distribution of wealth. This is why it works in place like Canada and New Zealand. Those countries still have the usual problems endemic to western society like drugs and binge drinking but there is very little violent crime and robbery.

The alternatives are: Totalitarian, iron fisted rule to impose order (like Singapore) or massive social inequalities coupled unchecked crime and violence (like South Africa).

[Keef]

Brendan Wrote:

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> The only way to have a crime free society and maintain our (western, democratic or what ever you want to call them) social and political ideals is to have a very low level of poverty and a relatively even distribution of wealth. This is

why it works in place like Canada and New Zealand. Those countries still have the usual problems endemic to western society like drugs and binge drinking but there is very little violent crime and robbery.

I've always thought there was a lot of poverty in NZ, but that may just be because I've seen "Once were warriors" :-S

[mockney piers]

I guess, hence the violence and crime.

[lozzyloz]

Yes we know what the reality is but I thought this thread was about drug policy.

In Canada and NZ drug abuse, alcoholism, violence and robbery is very high amongst the downtrodden indigenous peoples.

[*Bob*]

My view is that any change in policy is an impossibility.

[Brendan]

I think practically speaking in the UK at the moment you are correct there. Bar perhaps increased tolerance for users.

[mockney piers]

This made for depressing reading for those who were saying Singapore is such a terrible place.

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd%5B347%5D=x-347-559597

[Jah Lush]

Yup, yer right. After reading that, I'm really depressed now...

[Brendan]

Anyone know where I can take Greek Lessons?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Now Brendan, what exactly do you mean by that?