23rd March - ?Put It To The People March? - central London

[Jules-and-Boo]

For now.

[JohnL]

"Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP leader, and Michael Heseltine, the former Conservative cabinet minister, are amongst the keynote speakers due to address the end of the People?s Vote march on Saturday, where hundreds of thousands are expected to attend.

Other political figures include Labour MPs Jess Phillips and David Lammy; Conservatives MPs such as former cabinet minister Justine Greening; the former attorney general Dominic Grieve; the Independent Group MP Anna Soubry; the Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable; and Green MP Caroline Lucas. Speeches are due to begin around 2.45pm in Parliament Square with a feed relayed to large screens in Trafalgar Square."

[Sue]

Please go to this if you possibly can.

It's important.

[Earl Aelfheah]

No second referendum. End the chaos, revoke article 50.

[Jenny1]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> No second referendum. End the chaos, revoke

> article 50.

I think campaigning for both is wise at this stage.

[Hemingway]

Revoking article 50 wise?

First of all it's never going to happen - for the tories it would be eectoral suicide Tories are never going to do it; and Labour could only achieve it via a GE with it in their manifesto (which would be electoral suicide)

I voted remain and would vote remain agauin but so many remainers are delusional about the demand for either a second refeendum, which as it happens I think would probably return the same result, or far more worrying revoking article 50. This delusion really is echo chamber stuff.it's really not what much of the country is thinking. We'd end up with a significant, populist, proper Right Wng party with millions of voters.

[robbin]

Agreed. Also, I can't see how Labour could win a GE with Corbyn still at the helm.

As he continued to demonstrate with his absurdly petulant behaviour 2 nights ago, his judgment is just as flawed and he is just as incompetent as May (and that's really saying something). Any other opposition leader, given the omnishambles of this government, would be about 25 points clear in the polls!

YouGov have him 2 points behind Boris Johnson!

[robbin]

Here's a very up to date poll - Ipsos-MORI out today -

TM has a net satisfaction score of -36

JC has a net satisfaction score of -50

"Leader & Government Satisfaction Ratings

Theresa May now sees her worst leadership satisfaction ratings since she became Prime Minister. Three in ten say they?re satisfied with the way she is doing her job (29%, down 4 points) while two-thirds are dissatisfied (65%, up 7 points) ? leaving her a net satisfaction score of -36. The Government also sees the lowest satisfaction scores for the way it is running the country for any administration since John Major?s premiership. Just 11% are satisfied with the Government (down 11 points) with 86% dissatisfied (up 15 points) giving it a net satisfaction score of -75.

Net satisfaction with the Government (1979 ? 2019)

Conservative supporters remain positive on balance about Theresa May with 63% saying they?re satisfied in her, but they are less happy with the government overall ? 71% are dissatisfied (up 24 points).

Jeremy Corbyn?s leadership satisfaction scores also remain low. One in five are satisfied (20%, up 3 points) with the way he is doing his job as Labour leader while 70% are dissatisfied (down 2 points) ? leaving him a net satisfaction score of -50. Labour supporters are still very much split as well ? 42% are satisfied in him (down 2 points) while 40% are dissatisfied (down 6 points)."

[Jules-and-Boo]

This whole debacle has clearly demonstrated that our civil servants (yes - remember their mission being to serve the electorate?) are unfit to do their job.

The national catastrophe is that we do not have a viable contender for a decent PM (and extending this to a whole party).

The People's March shoudl actually focus on demanding we get value for money from our government. They should all be held accountable to their objectives and sacked if they fail to deliver.

There is not going to be a Revoke A50.

The elephant in the room is the completely inadequate set of individuals who are holding office.

And where the hell have the HOL been when the kids have been bickering?

[robbin]

Jules wrote...

"And where the hell have the HOL been when the kids have been bickering?"

Asleep?

Literally.

[Jenny1]

Hemingway Wrote:

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>

> ....a second refeendum, which as it happens I

> think would probably return the same result,

But it wouldn't be the same result, would it, because even if 'Leave' won, it would, this time, be a concrete proposal for a defined form of 'Leave' (see my post on the other thread re that)

> far more worrying revoking article 50. This

> delusion really is echo chamber stuff.it's really

> not what much of the country is thinking. We'd end

> up with a significant, populist, proper Right Wng

> party with millions of voters.

I tend to think panic about this is overplayed.

[Jenny1]

robbin Wrote:

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> Also, I can't see how Labour could win a

> GE with Corbyn still at the helm.

>

If there was a GE surely the likely outcome is another hung parliament. This could lead to a broad coalition including the SNP etc which would mean MPs from different parties could start to work out a new way forward.

[Jules-and-Boo]

that is actually a positive

[Jenny1]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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> There is not going to be a Revoke A50.

>

Perhaps not. Although serious commentators (ie David Allen Green) put the likelihood at 33.3 per cent earlier in the week. But the purpose of the petition is wider than that, don't you think? It helps to focus MPs minds in the crucial days and weeks to come on the fact that there are many and varied options out there, and that we, the public, are aware of this and that it's up to MPs to get together, be courageous and look at all the possibilities on offer. They have to shake off the idea that TM has all the answers (or indeed any answers).

[Jenny1]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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> that is actually a positive

Of course.

[Jenny1]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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> This whole debacle has clearly demonstrated that

> our civil servants (yes - remember their mission

> being to serve the electorate?) are unfit to do

> their job.

>

I agree with your other criticisms, but not this one. I haven't seen any evidence that the civil service has not been doing it's job. Also, do remember the HoL has pretty limited powers. The main problem is Corbyn and May and their collective disrespect for Parliament.

[Jules-and-Boo]

really? you really think they have been behaving as they should given the office they hold?

[Jenny1]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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> really? you really think they have been behaving

> as they should given the office they hold?

Yes. What have they done wrong in your view?

[Jules-and-Boo]

collaborate - behave in a grown up manner - be able to make decisions - put the people first - not bicker and debase themselves - be transparent - provide full and clear facts - do not tell lies - do not commit to something they cannot deliver

and so on.

basic stuff really

[Jenny1]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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> collaborate - behave in a grown up manner - be

> able to make decisions - put the people first -

> not bicker and debase themselves - be transparent

> - provide full and clear facts - do not tell lies

> - do not commit to something they cannot deliver

>

> and so on.

>

>

> basic stuff really

It's the politicians who've not done that though, isn't it? Not the civil servants.

[JohnL]

Jenny1 Wrote:

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> Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > There is not going to be a Revoke A50.

> >

>

> Perhaps not. Although serious commentators (ie

> David Allen Green) put the likelihood at 33.3 per

> cent earlier in the week. But the purpose of the

> petition is wider than that, don't you think? It

> helps to focus MPs minds in the crucial days and

> weeks to come on the fact that there are many and

> varied options out there, and that we, the public,

> are aware of this and that it's up to MPs to get

> together, be courageous and look at all the

> possibilities on offer. They have to shake off the

> idea that TM has all the answers (or indeed any

> answers).

If it was done Liddington would do it IMHO

If it did happen it would be very sudden and shocking - but sudden and shocking things have happened more than once in my lifetime.

[Jules-and-Boo]

fine - to be pedantic.

politicians are public servants.

[JohnL]

Jenny1 Wrote:

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> Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > collaborate - behave in a grown up manner - be

> > able to make decisions - put the people first -

> > not bicker and debase themselves - be

> transparent

> > - provide full and clear facts - do not tell

> lies

> > - do not commit to something they cannot

> deliver

> >

> > and so on.

> >

> >

> > basic stuff really

>

> It's the politicians who've not done that though,

> isn't it? Not the civil servants.

Civil Servants (and I know a few) have a job to do and they just do it - they don't make policy.

[Jenny1]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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> fine - to be pedantic.

>

> politicians are public servants.

Yes. Politicians are public servants, but not civil servants. Sorry if I sound pedantic, but I think it's a really important distinction. Civil servants are very different from MPs.

[IlonaM]

dbboy Wrote:

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> Which bit of democracy don't you seem to get?

>

> democracyDictionary result for democracy

> /dɪˈmɒkrəsi/Submit

> noun

> a system of government by the whole population or

> all the eligible members of a state, typically

> through elected representatives.

> "a system of parliamentary democracy"

> synonyms: representative government, elective

> government, constitutional government, popular

> government; More

> a state governed under a system of democracy.

> plural noun: democracies

> "a multiparty democracy"

> control of an organization or group by the

> majority of its members.

> "the intended extension of industrial democracy"

>

> In terms of the EU referendum result, you voted,

> the country reached a majority decision to leave,

> the Government are trying to (badly) implement the

> result. A further referendum will only muddy the

> waters. You may or may not agree with the outcome

> of referendum, but that is the result be that

> right or wrong.

Democracy, like society, is not static. To quote a Brexiteer,'If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy' (David Davis MP, 9/11/12 during his speech 'Europe:it's time to decide'. Given the pig's ear Cameron, May and the Government have made of Brexit, the people have a right to look at Brexit again and even change their mind if they choose to.