Some advice/a moan:ruby wedding

[Growlybear]

I was gobsmacked when I first read the comment about grandparents blowing their savings on cruises, but then I assumed that it must have been a joke. My mother is almost 85 and in remarkable health, and I always encourage her to spend her money on anything that will make her remaining years more enjoyable. I love to see her enjoying herself going on lovely holidays, and the pleasure she gets from her new car. My parents worked hard to give my brother and I a happy and comfortable childhood and I can see no reason why I should have expected any financial support to continue once I had left home and started my own family. I hope my mother spends and enjoys every penny she has.

I'm also a bit surprised by the attitude towards the ruby wedding celebrations, although I can understand that some people might be irritated about the present issue. If I had a relative or friend who had reached such a milestone in their marriage, I would feel privileged to be invited to share their celebrations with them, and would not expect them to organise their celebration around my children's sleep patterns! It sounds as though some people have very inflexible routines where their children are concerned.

[dulwichgirl2]

Sb and other poster, Well as I said, all families are different. This is how mine operates and how I would expect to operate with my gch. It works as long as you don't get out of sync as I said. Please demonstrate tolerance of other people's approaches to life. I even stated that my husband finds this over the top so I can see there is a range of views. There is no need or justification for the angry tone of your responses.

[sb]

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[prickle]

Both my mum and FIL are in their 80's and enjoy good health and get by comfortably moneywise. The attitude in both families are that we should be treating them in their dotage than they treating us. For instance, my brother is paying for my mum to go to NY with him.

I think family gatherings are lovely. They are the glue that keeps us together. I would like to think that our children will feel a connection and a bond with their extended family long after we are gone.

Endlessly fascinating thread ?

[dulwichgirl2]

Yes exactly - which bankrupts the consumer but is great for the cruises companies and the schools!

Incidentally, I was very independent and refused all help after 15 - fool that I was as I will still feel I have to cough up for my descendants!

[sillywoman]

"I find it astonishing when gps blow their savings on mega cruises rather than saving it for their gchildren's school fees, that sort of weird priority."

::o speechless. So so wrong, on so many many levels.

Still, there's nowt so strange as other folks eh?

[dulwichgirl2]

Sorry - before anyone thinks we are an evil bunch taking taking taking from our elderly relatives can I just stress it is a constant fight to get them to accept anything from us. You should see the scenes in the restaurant with my father sprinting to pay, propelled by my mother and my husband sitting smugly as he knows he paid after the starter (or similar). They don't see the point of mega luxury when they want to help us and get us bigger houses etc. I really don't want us to sound evil on this as I will do the same - pls believe me forumites!

[Coach Beth]

Everyone's family and family traditions are different. And attitudes towards money are very different. Perhaps it is to do with income of parents as well? My parents had very average salaries - my mother worked with deaf/blind children and my father had mental health issues which meant his ability to work was very 'up and down' . I remember them dealing with debt when I was a child and I didn't some of the things my friends did - although I was not deprived in any sense of the word! (music lessons for instance were prioritised) So once myself and my brother go through university, we didn't expect much in the way of finances from them. But my mother did lend me some money towards a deposit on my first flat, but I paid her back.

A few years ago, my parents were struggling with the upkeep of their Victorian House (or 'the money pit' as my brother and I called it) in the small town in Canada they lived in. So we both chipped in to help them sort out the roof and then supported them to sell the blasted thing and move into a easy upkeep apartment near my brother. Anyway, I guess perhaps if they had been well-off, maybe they would have wanted to give us money and maybe if we felt they could afford it we would have accepted it - who knows? But equally, I know that I am happy that due to the sale of our family home, they have a nice little cushion to see them out into a comfortable retirement - not one of luxury but comfort - to enable my mom to go on little trips, enjoy nice theatre trips, etc. It's what she deserves after a lifetime of raising kids, dealing with my Dad's mental health stuff, worrying about debt and working really hard with deaf-blind children in the public education system all her life (for which she was not paid as well as a banker or lawyer but for which she bloody well should have been!)

[Vickster]

Growlybear, just to be clear, there was never any expectation that anything would be organised around my child's sleep patterns. On the other hand, that doesn't stop me being allowed to be a bit frustrated about the difficulties it would cause. As for inflexible routines, what nonsense. Every baby I know has a sleep around lunchtime early afternoon. What time that sleep may occur, in my case, can be varied widely. But the consequences of not having it at all are not fun, as we found out at about 3pm on Sunday when the predicted meltdown occurred.

The posts regarding holidays/school fees are interesting. One thing that has occurred to me, is in the future, who picks up the tab when parents need extra care at home/nursing homes? Presumably it is the children if the parents can't afford it. But what if the parents have spent the previous 10 years on lavish cruises blowing their savings? What would be the case then? If our parents expect us to stand on our own two feet financially aged 18, presumably they should not expect to fall back on us financially in their old age? This is all hypothetical (I hope), but would be interested in people's thoughts.

[prickle]

"One thing that has occurred to me, is in the future, who picks up the tab when parents need extra care at home/nursing homes?"

I am no saint but strongly feel that I want to do all I can to take care of my mother when she needs it. Luckily she owns her own house so money-wise we are not too worried but I would like to be there for her for her day to day needs - hosp visits, meals etc.

I am trying to persuade her to sell up and move nearer to me while she is still well and active, but its not easy as she is fiercely independent!

[Vickster]

Prickle, for the record I agree with you. My parents all live too far away for me to be any practical help, so it would only be finacially that I was able to help. One would hope that their generation was sufficiently aware of the requirements of old age to have saved into a pension for these eventualities. If it became necessary for one parent to go into a nursing home and the other stayed in the family home and therefore it could not be sold to meet the care costs, then extra money would be required to pay for these costs.

[Kalamiphile]

Not sure what generation of gp's you are referring to Vicster, but if it is mine (63 at present)we are the generation of women that had no advice and are now if single destined to live in poverty due to raising children and not paying stamps. When I got divorced from my childrens father, we were not given any pension rights and therefore now have to face the consequences of that law. Also we, rightly or wrongly, were given the impression that the state pension would be sufficient after a lifetime of work or bringing up your generation to support us.

I think that often what leads us to our decisions on inlaws and parents is our childhood experience. As someone from a poverty stricken background (food boxes left at christmas by annonymous neighbours)due to a mother with mental health problems and a father who due to stress had a heart attack at 36 and therefore we lived on National Assistance, I know they did the best they could, my father was a proud northener and would not accept help and that taught me not to take from others. Now I give to my children to help them out, and they take it willingly and sometimes with gratitude! They dont know what real struggle is, and maybe that is my fault but I know that my parents did the best for me in very difficult circumstances and I do the best for my children. What goes around comes around.

[Coach Beth]

Please remember there the government will cover the costs nursing homes and in-house carers - although the government is cutting back all the time so if you want your parent to have extra care than what the state provids, yes that would have to be paid for. For instance, if after your parent is assessed by social services they deem that she only needs someone to come in 30 minutes a day to prepare her dinner and do personal care, that is all they will pay for. But if you want someone to come in the morning as well, you would have to appeal or pay for it yourself. If one partner needs to go into a care home and the other is still living in the house, the government will pay for the nursing home costs (althought their pension will go straight to the home). My partner's mother is in a care home up North - after she lived independently in sheltered accomodation for many years her needs were too great. Her house was sold and this went to the costs of her care.

In Canada, my father's needs (he became physically disabled) became to great for my mother and he went into a care home several years ago which was a great relief for everyone frankly as it was too much for her and she is able to visit him every day. Before he detoriated physically, the state paid for one carers to come round morning and night to do personal care. My parents were means tested and the majority of the cost is covered by the state but about $150/$200 comes out of my parents joint pension towards his care.

[Vickster]

Coach Beth , that is very interesting. I clearly know nothing about this. Aside from the state pension, I thought you got nothing from the government.

[Coach Beth]

Social care for the elderly is a vital part of our welfare state. Most countries like Canada have similiar provision. Here is an excellent article which outlines the provision in this country.

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/18/08/2011/104087/elderly-people.htm

[Lochie]

I think there are serious plans to reform the care system for the elderly so that there is a cap of ?35k for all care and the gov will pay for the rest - therefore meaning you don't necessarily have to sell your home to pay for care in old age.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13980493

Whether or not this will ever come to fruition is another thing.

[dulwichgirl2]

Vickster, the local State provision is not necessarily what you would want for your parents, hence the issue for many people of selling principal home to pay for the care or buying insurance against care costs, that sort of thing. Morally, you raise an interseting and logical point with cruises/care costs. I am not the one to answer it as it doesn't apply to us - as above posts show! - but I'd be interested to hear what others think on it.

I'd/my siblings would ask my parents to come and live with us if it were just an issue of old age. I have no prob doing this. They would love seeing more of their gchidren. It would, "make" their remaining years. If it were an issue of actual health, requiring a nurse etc., I'd get one into my house as opposed to my parents' house. (Unfortunately, the issue of moving house and leaving friends reduces as parents age and their friends are no longer here.) Parental old age seems to have crept up on us - some people were getting organsied when they were in their late 50s and it is a good idea to do so, before issues of mortality are serious ones.

[MGolden]

Vicster - this has to be one of the most fascinating threads I've read and followed on this forum for some time! Well done!

Dulwichgirl2 - as you have pointed out there are many types of family and what suits one doesn't suit all. However, I must admit that your line '....hence the issue for many people of selling principal home to pay for the care...' did make me laugh a little. As I only have one home selling the principal or secondary really isn't an option for me and I suspect for most.

But what also struck me was what read like (and I do apologise if it wasn't intended to be so) an assumption that your parents would want to live with you if and when they become old. My mother is 87, fiercely independent and lives alone. She is also frail with multiple medical conditions. She is visted nearly every day by friends and my sisters and I. She adores her grandchildren and loves the peace and quiet when they (and we) leave. She would be horrified if we were to suggest she give that up and live with one of us because she is old!

On a more practical level I imagine the idea of moving into my family home which is noisy ( I have two sons age 9 and 13)would be the stuff of nightmares. We would need to get one of our children to give up a bedroom or alternatively lose our living room to make it in a bedroom for my mother. And then what happens if my MIL becomes old (she is already 81)? We'd have to build an extension! And then, what if they get ill? A live in nurse would also need a room.

The reality of having an elderly relative move in to one's home is often very different from the fantasy.

But - maybe your parents have made it clear that when they get old they would love to come and live with you and your family and that might be right for you.

ETA: correct spelling

[Coach Beth]

I also think there is a big misunderstanding of what is avaiable for older people - there isn't alot of choice out there, even if you or they have money. What I think you will find is that 'luxury' elder care nursing facilities for people who don't like the idea of being in a 'run-of-the-mill' nursing home cater for older people who do not have serious health care needs. For example, they are mobile, not disabled and don't suffer from dementia. If you want specialist elder care for older people with disabilities and serious health needs, the key providers are your run-of-the mill nursing homes that take council funded clients. And actually, most nursing homes are run by private companies anyway - they aren't council run anymore (more is the pity I think!). The places are council funded (or not as the case may be). So my partners mother for instance was not council funded when she went into a home. Her home was sold and she was offered a place in a home closest to where she lived and where one of my partners brothers live. Now that money has run out, her place is funded by the council. It's ok actually, she has her own room (as do most elderly people in homes), it is bright and well-staffed with assistants and nurses - not as nice as my father's in Canada which is the best nursing home I've been to (they employ a full-time recreation director who organises something every day for people and who goes around chatting to people, keeping everyone's spirits up). In fact, I think when I get to that stage I'm moving back to Canada folks!!!

The other problem you will find is that once an older person has serious mobility issues, you have to be able to lift them up from the bed, to the toilet and so on. With my Dad, it got increasingly worse - so even the home carers who came into help him were unable to do this so he had to go into a home. In nursing homes, they have hoists that lift the person from bed and to the loo. It is difficult to get this fited in a private home. Plus there is the issue of personal care and whether your parent would want you as their adult child to do their personal care.

HOWEVER, on the bright side apparently most people spend all their years and die in their own homes. Most people would rather live in their own homes and only if things get so difficult do they need to move.

[dulwichgirl2]

MGolden, No - I'm re interpreting their statements of the complete opposite, along the lines of "We'll be fine".

Congratulations on your mother's tremendous spirit and ability to cope. At 87, that's great. She's lucky to get lots of visitors and people to keep her lively. As Beth says, the organising of events and stimulating activities makes such a difference, actually for all of us, now that I think about it. We all need a full time recreational director!

[intexasatthe moment]

Just to say that I helped to care for a 96 year old living alone in her own home in Southwark .

She recieved 5 visits a day ( 2 carers each visit ) and had a hoist . ( though don't imagine that this meant the family didn't also need to put many hours in as well )

The carers and the hoist were funded by social services ,the client paid a small ( means tested ) fee towards the cost .

And this http://www.thiis.co.uk/new-products-cricket.aspx is a fantastic piece of kit which can obviate the need for a hoist in many cases .

There are various ways of supporting elderly people so that they can stay in their own homes and Southwark residents have not had the drastic cuts that those in other areas have .

[Pugwash]

Every local social service dept has a budget for it's residents and it is inevitable that with decreased funding from the government,local authority's have to have ceilings on care home fees. One local authority, with a low elderly population may say they are only willing to fund ( with the client contribution) a nursing home whose fee level is no more than ?650 pw. Another authority which has a vast elderly population may say ?576 pw. If the care home costs more than the LA is willing to pay for a Third Party Top Up is required from friends/relatives/charity.

There are London Boroughs who are 'wealthy' in the sense that most of their residents are home owners, and if they are not living with spouses/anotherclose relative over age of 65, can rent out or sell their property to meet fees.

There is a Deferred Payment Scheme where a property does not have to be sold immediently someone goes into a home, the LA can put a Legal Charge on the property and on the death of the owner, or if sold, will recoup the care home fees.